Starting DM program...which agency????

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And this feedback helps how...exactly?..................

As a DM in the USA you get free air and a pat on the back. 99% of instructors have day jobs, because scuba doesn't pay well enough to actually live on. So your interest in portability is great but the only people moving for DM "jobs" are people who already have money, don't have families, and are otherwise healthy.
 
One option for you can be to do your DM with the SDI/TDI shop then when you will be ready for instructor, do a PADI IDC and become a PADI instructor.
Now many people are here saying that working as an instructor won't allow you to earn suffisant living.
I fail to agree with them. My own choice is to have a money making job and work as an instructor on the side (more like a hobby)
But life is not only about money (I know that this may sound strange for most Americans). Life is also about quality and yeah, having a job in the Carrabeans or anywhere else where life is less stressful, if you make enough money for your accomodation, your food and have enough left to indulge yourself when you are in the mood of doing so.
How many people work their ass off in the States, having 3 jobs and do not make decent money?
Ok, those poor men/women are unlikely to be scuba divers but wouldn't they deserve to have a nice quality of life?
This is more a philosophical reflexion now and living in France, I am glad I have learnt to see my life and see people for what they are and not how much they have/earn.

Once again, PADI being the major certification agency you will find several pro/cons.
Some people like it other hate it.
Being a member of the leading organisation will definitely broaden your options and if you wich to cross-over to other organisations, you will just extend these options.

(Keep in my mind that when you reach the instructor level:
a. it is often easier to crossover from PADI to another organisation rather than the way around.
b. with PADI you don't have to be affiliated to a diveshop, you work as an independant freelance.
c. PADI doesn't restrict its instructors to teach other agencies programs (except I think at the Course Director level)

Cheers
JLuc
 
Called a reality check. DM is another name most times for indentured servant. rarely do DM's make much money. And they should. But there are so many and shops know there will be more. If DM standards included a requirement that not just any one could pay money and take the course things might change. My business is looking like I will need an assistant in the not so distant future. I have one or two people in mind to ask if they wish to pursue that route. That is how I will get a DM. By selecting someone based on their skills, knowledge, and ability to work with students. There are some divers I've seen in DM courses who frankly should not be there but they paid several hundred bucks and were allowed to take the course. This to me is not how DM's should be selected. Greed should not drive the process of selecting the best candidate. I look at it as an application process not a selling process.

again, thanks for the advise and information. i could not agree more that 'just' having the paper(certification) can be meaningless. Too many times I have dived with "advanced" divers who couldn't maintain proper position or bounced like crazy while attempting a safty stop.

I too pick people that work for me based on the known skills, not just their 'degree'. I just feel that maybe i am miscommunitcating.

I'm not sure how 'greed' worked its way into the conversation.

For context, I am looking at a possible early retirement. I've aready taking care of the greed thing. As a traveling vagabon, I was just looking to where I would have the greatest opportunities to teach, to share, to film etc. Example, I get a DM with SDI. Then I go for instructor. There are very few SDI shops in the Carribbean...that's why my question is about options, and portability...not will I make a living, be an indentured servant, or satisfy my greed.
 
One option for you can be to do your DM with the SDI/TDI shop then when you will be ready for instructor, do a PADI IDC and become a PADI instructor.
Now many people are here saying that working as an instructor won't allow you to earn suffisant living.
I fail to agree with them. My own choice is to have a money making job and work as an instructor on the side (more like a hobby)
But life is not only about money (I know that this may sound strange for most Americans). Life is also about quality and yeah, having a job in the Carrabeans or anywhere else where life is less stressful, if you make enough money for your accomodation, your food and have enough left to indulge yourself when you are in the mood of doing so.
How many people work their ass off in the States, having 3 jobs and do not make decent money?
Ok, those poor men/women are unlikely to be scuba divers but wouldn't they deserve to have a nice quality of life?
This is more a philosophical reflexion now and living in France, I am glad I have learnt to see my life and see people for what they are and not how much they have/earn.

Once again, PADI being the major certification agency you will find several pro/cons.
Some people like it other hate it.
Being a member of the leading organisation will definitely broaden your options and if you wich to cross-over to other organisations, you will just extend these options.

(Keep in my mind that when you reach the instructor level:
a. it is often easier to crossover from PADI to another organisation rather than the way around.
b. with PADI you don't have to be affiliated to a diveshop, you work as an independant freelance.
c. PADI doesn't restrict its instructors to teach other agencies programs (except I think at the Course Director level)

Cheers
JLuc

Merci beaucoup. Maintenant, c'est une réponse à la question a demandé.
 
If it takes a few weekends for the class your not getting the skills but the card. If it takes a year then the odds are you put the time in and have some skills.
 
I 100% agree..


One option for you can be to do your DM with the SDI/TDI shop then when you will be ready for instructor, do a PADI IDC and become a PADI instructor.
Now many people are here saying that working as an instructor won't allow you to earn suffisant living.
I fail to agree with them. My own choice is to have a money making job and work as an instructor on the side (more like a hobby)
But life is not only about money (I know that this may sound strange for most Americans). Life is also about quality and yeah, having a job in the Carrabeans or anywhere else where life is less stressful, if you make enough money for your accomodation, your food and have enough left to indulge yourself when you are in the mood of doing so.
How many people work their ass off in the States, having 3 jobs and do not make decent money?
Ok, those poor men/women are unlikely to be scuba divers but wouldn't they deserve to have a nice quality of life?
This is more a philosophical reflexion now and living in France, I am glad I have learnt to see my life and see people for what they are and not how much they have/earn.

Once again, PADI being the major certification agency you will find several pro/cons.
Some people like it other hate it.
Being a member of the leading organisation will definitely broaden your options and if you wich to cross-over to other organisations, you will just extend these options.

(Keep in my mind that when you reach the instructor level:
a. it is often easier to crossover from PADI to another organisation rather than the way around.
b. with PADI you don't have to be affiliated to a diveshop, you work as an independant freelance.
c. PADI doesn't restrict its instructors to teach other agencies programs (except I think at the Course Director level)

Cheers
JLuc
 
Was not talking about you being greedy. It was in the context of shops and agencies pushing for numbers and not necessarily quality. A shop convincing a mediocre diver that they shoud be a DM to get their certs up or sell the course is not doing anyone any good.
 
Was not talking about you being greedy. It was in the context of shops and agencies pushing for numbers and not necessarily quality. A shop convincing a mediocre diver that they shoud be a DM to get their certs up or sell the course is not doing anyone any good.

I agree. But How is that specific to PADI?
I disagree. Getting a bad diver to continue its education. Teaching him Professionnal standards and making him even more responsible for others might be a good way to improve itself.
There is no bad diver, but divers that need to improve (under the guidance of qualified profesionnals).

My last point is that nobody pays its Divemaster rating. You pay a training. If you don't meet the performance requierement you do not qualify.

Under the water, I have seen (bad) PADI divers
Under the water, I have seen (bad) SSI divers
Under the water, I have seen (bad) CMAS divers
Under the water, I have seen (bad) BSAC divers
and I am pretty sure that there are out there (bad) SEI, ISE, GUE, DIR, TDI, IANTD divers.

I recently became active on scubaboard because I was tired of the PADI bashing on French forums and the French mentality that can be sum up in: "All divers that have not been trained following the French standard are bad divers" and I am sad to find the same behaviour here.:depressed:

May be if other agencies were spending less time fighting PADI domination and focussing on divers/customers needs, the domination of PADI might decrease.
The plain truth is that PADI is out there and people attracted to diving find PADI standards and PADI professionnal work suitable for them to learn and dive in a safe manner.
Wanna change that ? Just be better in fullfiling the custimer needs and the customer will become a diver from your organisation.
But thankd God, he will be a DIVER, and we should not forget, we are all DIVERS having in common OUR LOVE for the UnderWater World.
 
again, thanks for the advise and information. i could not agree more that 'just' having the paper(certification) can be meaningless. Too many times I have dived with "advanced" divers who couldn't maintain proper position or bounced like crazy while attempting a safty stop.

I too pick people that work for me based on the known skills, not just their 'degree'. I just feel that maybe i am miscommunitcating.

I'm not sure how 'greed' worked its way into the conversation.

For context, I am looking at a possible early retirement. I've aready taking care of the greed thing. As a traveling vagabon, I was just looking to where I would have the greatest opportunities to teach, to share, to film etc. Example, I get a DM with SDI. Then I go for instructor. There are very few SDI shops in the Carribbean...that's why my question is about options, and portability...not will I make a living, be an indentured servant, or satisfy my greed.

JC,

I had really great DM training with PDIC because my instructor was the president of the agency and was one of the first YMCA and NAUI instructors back in the early days of the sport. My girlfriend had really great PADI DM training in Aruba because her instructors had been divers in the Dutch Navy. Our instructors had something special to offer because they had known a world of rigorous diver training and did their best to incorporate and balance difficult challenges with motivation and fun.

Because I was at an agency HQ, I was trained to assist and run exacting programs that conformed to the highest standards of training and demonstration quality. My girlfriend was prepared for working on dive boats in a busy resort environment. Her instructors emphasized a rescue mentality. My instructors emphasized a preventative rescue mentality.

When I moved to Miami and sought a diving instructor job. No one wanted to hire me because I wasn't PADI. It didn't matter that I knew more about the diving industry from working at a headquarters than those they hired and it didn't matter that I knew more about education from teaching headquarters' programs. It also didn't matter that I had experience. What mattered was PADI.

No problem. I sought work as a lifeguard and was welcomed with open arms by Dade County. I wanted to be on the sand at Crandon Beach, but they wanted to put me at the atoll pool. I thought it was because I was a rookie there and that is where the rookies started. I was wrong. The most experienced lifeguards were there. I asked my captain what the deal was and he told me that because I had lots of experience as a pool and lake lifeguard, he needed experienced guards to do "preventative lifeguarding" of all the toddlers and infants that frequented the pool. He believed that preventing problems was an art, but running into the surf and rescuing a victim was a failure to prevent and the most lifeguards are good rescuers, but less were good preventors.

As a headquarters trained DM and instructor, I know that we can prevent rescues through high standards and rigorous training. I see the job of a DM slightly differently than my girlfriend.

Her experience as a DM was plucking divers out of the drink and leading large groups on reef tours in which head counts were important.

I worked for various dive ops over the years and I was always in trouble for figuring out ways to improve safety because that is what we do at HQ. I got in trouble for making a suggestion that female instructors who are taking divers on cavern tours be allowed to request a male "safety" diver if they felt uncomfortable being in the forest alone with one or more clients. I also got into trouble for suggesting that radios be installed in the trucks to better communicate with the dive shop or EMS and for suggesting that backboards be sent in the trucks in case of a diving accident as they would help a female instructor manage a heavy male victim better during diving or medical emergencies. No one had ever suggested such things.

As a lifeguard, I worked in a remote area where I had to operate independently of rapid response. If I were the manager of that dive center, I would have run wilderness first aid courses, self-defense courses, and do in-service training of emergency accident management in remote areas for those dives. Of course, it's unlikely that I will ever be in such a position because I'm not PADI ... although SDI/TDI is catching on big time.

With the right instructor teaching you, you can become an excellent DM no matter what agency you choose. That's why it is more important to choose the instructor and not the agency.

Some will tell you that it is easier to cross from PADI to another agency, than move into PADI, but the hardest thing is to find an experienced, knowledgeable instructor who can make you into a DM that has more to offer than others. You want someone who will make you swim hard and do lots of rescues in the water over and over again and encourage you to increase your fitness and stamina for swimming rescues. You want someone who knows equipment inside and out who can tell you how to make field repairs on gear. You want an instructor who will be able to educate you on the business of diving, retail sales, and this education should come from a thriving dive center not one that is struggling. When you get the tools you need for the job, then if you ever need to take a course to become PADI, that's easy. You may be able to find all this at a PADI facility. My intent wasn't to bash PADI, but to make a point that true education is priceless and that should be your goal and not the C-card.

If you want to take a good PADI DM course in a busy resort diving environment to prepare you for that, I recommend Cristina Zenato at UNEXSO on Grand Bahama. She is a tech and cave instructor, does shark dives, and she is tough, skilled and fair. She can balance "fast food" with quality.
 

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