Stage planning in caves

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rjack321

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Opps can't edit the title - in caves

I know that some DIR divers only use stages for mega dives, backgas for emergencies.

I also know that the MX DIR group sometimes uses one or 2 stages then continues a penetration on backgas.

What are the general GUE/DIR guidelines for "stage only" vs. "stage + some backgas" types of penetrations? Distances, safety gas, depths, scooters, siphons vs. spring whatever goes into these decisions I wanna know more. :)
 
Opps can't edit the title - in caves

I know that some DIR divers only use stages for mega dives, backgas for emergencies.

I also know that the MX DIR group sometimes uses one or 2 stages then continues a penetration on backgas.

What are the general GUE/DIR guidelines for "stage only" vs. "stage + some backgas" types of penetrations? Distances, safety gas, depths, scooters, siphons vs. spring whatever goes into these decisions I wanna know more. :)

Good question RJ.

Not sure if this fall into what you consider cave diving, but it does have some relevance just the same. In fact I think on the scale of difficulty, all else being equal this is even more so a concern than a cave dive.......

There's a wreck dive that some folks do up our way in the winter. A total ice-over-head dive from shore. At its simplest, it's a basic 1/3rds dive on 104's, no deco on EAN32.

The problem lies in the temperatures and the fairly common occurrence of free-flows.

From what I can recall, the GUE guys doing this dive prior to recent years were doing this as a straight up 1/3rds dive. Then one day they had a bad roll of the dice and came up with more free-flows within the team that you could really expect at once, and it really caused things to go sideways. They made it back, but since then as I understand they run this entirely as a stage-bottle dive and save the back gas entirely for emergency/contingent plans.

Don't know about you, but after 15 minutes of spinning valves managing free-flows, I am freaking pooched. I'd also rather spin a valve on a stage than back gas.

Whenever I feel the need to run full 1/3rds, even when not in cold water, I think of what could have happened to these guys, and decide that conservatism will be the word of the day.

I read the thread that spawned this one and for the life of me I can't figure out why people feel the need to always run to the maximum of gas use when the dive they are contemplating may require much more conservatism than 1/3rds would call for.

How tough is it to drag another bottle along? We may need to define what is considered a 'big/mega dive' to further flesh this one out. The dive above was I guess not considered all that big, until the factor of possible/highly probable multiple free-flows were encountered, and then the tune changed pretty quick.
 
Changed your title for you, rjack.
 
Opps can't edit the title - in caves

I know that some DIR divers only use stages for mega dives, backgas for emergencies.

I also know that the MX DIR group sometimes uses one or 2 stages then continues a penetration on backgas.

What are the general GUE/DIR guidelines for "stage only" vs. "stage + some backgas" types of penetrations? Distances, safety gas, depths, scooters, siphons vs. spring whatever goes into these decisions I wanna know more. :)

1st rule - never violate thirds with total gas. A previous post advocating doing just this. You can arguably get away with this on easy dives where you are staying in the kiddy pool and spend most of the dive in high flow areas. Then again, you can get away with diving 1/2 on most cave dives too. But, it is a bad habit and will eventually bite you.

2nd - thirds is the minimum. Once conditions (syphon, unexplored cave where exit vis will suck, etc.), dive plans (distance, scooter usage), and other factors change beyond idealy easy conditions, thirds really isn't enough since you can expect holdups if any problems are encountered on exit, particularly if there are gas issues. I can't remember the last time I did a gas contrained dive. In Florida, it is deco and in Mexico it is the ridiculous bottom times you start getting. Carrying plenty of gas in a cave is really easy to do. We will often do easy 1.5 to 2 hour dives in mexico on just a single stage with no back gas which provides a huge safety net plus it allows you to simply leave your rig set up for the next dive without changing tanks. I have done days of diving this way. This also allows enough gas for unplanned side excursions, but that gets beyond the scope here.

In most situations, diving a third of a stage is dumb. In an emergency, you don't want a bunch of stages floating around with 1,000 psi in them. You want to use them and then dump them reducing the drag of the team and speeding the exit. (Or, in more minor situations, hand off gear to a less task loaded team member with plenty of gas.) So, you want to breath half the gas in, and half out. Leaving enough for stage swithes, etc.

Exactly what the 1/2+ turn pressure is depends on the cave. The 1/2+ 200 rule was developed for the WKPP. It works perfectly there. The last 150psi of gas in a tank are inaccessible due to depth. At those depths you burn around 200 psi on the drop and pickup. So, a 3400 fill dived at 1/2 + 200 would use 1500 going in, 200 on the switches, 1500 exiting, and you have about 200 left you can't breathe. This generaly rule adds a bit of safety and works well elsewhere in Florida. In Mexico, 1/2 or 1/2 + 100 usually works fine. When breathing stages in ths manner you have to reduce back gas breathed by the amount you breathed the stage past 3rds. For a single tank swim dive that is probably enough given the other constraints noted above are met. But, add the peentration distances of scooters, multiple stages, etc. and then you start needing a much greater reserve which is where the general rule of not touching back gas comes in. Again, in some situations you may breathe a small amount of backgas. But, once the dive logistics get to this level, the better decision is usually to bring another stage.

Gas planning can get more complex, but if you are actually learning anything from this, doing so would be a bad idea. Hypothetical dive in Mexico, three stage dive, two scooters, 1st stage gets dropped at halves or slightly above with scooters at about 90 minutes. Second stage will be used until a predesignated point is reached due to not wanting to impact the cave and this being the only good drop point in the section of cave. This point is a stretch on the second stage. So, you back off halves on the third stage and on exit just grab the second stage and don't switch to it until the third is empty. These types of on the fly adjustments can greatly complicate the dive and are generally only used when absolutely necessary. Back gas in al80s in this example would would be slightly better than thirds. So, if all of the stages where really being used, you may need to consider placing a safety with the scooters. Or, you would probably just barely use the third stage for penetration on this dive and it would be acting mostly as a safety.
 
Steve, is this the same dive that someone died on last year when all their regs freeflowed at once?
 
Steve, is this the same dive that someone died on last year when all their regs freeflowed at once?

Same wreck, same conditions, different dive, slightly different events, and for the record the incident you speak of did not happen exactly that way, but that is not what this thread is about.

Excellent summary RT, but I would have expected no less from you.
 
Same wreck, same conditions, different dive, slightly different events, and for the record the incident you speak of did not happen exactly that way, but that is not what this thread is about.

Excellent summary RT, but I would have expected no less from you.

Fair enough, do you happen to know of a thread that covers that incident? Being in Ontario, I've heard about it, but always through second hand information.

Thanks,
Jim
 
1st rule - never violate thirds with total gas. A previous post advocating doing just this. You can arguably get away with this on easy dives where you are staying in the kiddy pool and spend most of the dive in high flow areas. Then again, you can get away with diving 1/2 on most cave dives too. But, it is a bad habit and will eventually bite you.

2nd - thirds is the minimum. Once conditions (syphon, unexplored cave where exit vis will suck, etc.), dive plans (distance, scooter usage), and other factors change beyond idealy easy conditions, thirds really isn't enough since you can expect holdups if any problems are encountered on exit, particularly if there are gas issues. I can't remember the last time I did a gas contrained dive. In Florida, it is deco and in Mexico it is the ridiculous bottom times you start getting. Carrying plenty of gas in a cave is really easy to do. We will often do easy 1.5 to 2 hour dives in mexico on just a single stage with no back gas which provides a huge safety net plus it allows you to simply leave your rig set up for the next dive without changing tanks. I have done days of diving this way. This also allows enough gas for unplanned side excursions, but that gets beyond the scope here.

In most situations, diving a third of a stage is dumb. In an emergency, you don't want a bunch of stages floating around with 1,000 psi in them. You want to use them and then dump them reducing the drag of the team and speeding the exit. (Or, in more minor situations, hand off gear to a less task loaded team member with plenty of gas.) So, you want to breath half the gas in, and half out. Leaving enough for stage swithes, etc.

Exactly what the 1/2+ turn pressure is depends on the cave. The 1/2+ 200 rule was developed for the WKPP. It works perfectly there. The last 150psi of gas in a tank are inaccessible due to depth. At those depths you burn around 200 psi on the drop and pickup. So, a 3400 fill dived at 1/2 + 200 would use 1500 going in, 200 on the switches, 1500 exiting, and you have about 200 left you can't breathe. This generaly rule adds a bit of safety and works well elsewhere in Florida. In Mexico, 1/2 or 1/2 + 100 usually works fine. When breathing stages in ths manner you have to reduce back gas breathed by the amount you breathed the stage past 3rds. For a single tank swim dive that is probably enough given the other constraints noted above are met. But, add the peentration distances of scooters, multiple stages, etc. and then you start needing a much greater reserve which is where the general rule of not touching back gas comes in. Again, in some situations you may breathe a small amount of backgas. But, once the dive logistics get to this level, the better decision is usually to bring another stage.

Gas planning can get more complex, but if you are actually learning anything from this, doing so would be a bad idea. Hypothetical dive in Mexico, three stage dive, two scooters, 1st stage gets dropped at halves or slightly above with scooters at about 90 minutes. Second stage will be used until a predesignated point is reached due to not wanting to impact the cave and this being the only good drop point in the section of cave. This point is a stretch on the second stage. So, you back off halves on the third stage and on exit just grab the second stage and don't switch to it until the third is empty. These types of on the fly adjustments can greatly complicate the dive and are generally only used when absolutely necessary. Back gas in al80s in this example would would be slightly better than thirds. So, if all of the stages where really being used, you may need to consider placing a safety with the scooters. Or, you would probably just barely use the third stage for penetration on this dive and it would be acting mostly as a safety.

Some comments...

There are lots of gas constrained cave dives in Florida. Not sure what you're talking about here? You simply dive to thirds and deco out. Thirds has proven to be more than adequate for Florida caves, and as I said, I'm exiting with lots of gas.

Breathing your stages completely down leaves no backup. While this may work in shallow Mexico caves, I prefer to know that if there's a problem all I have to do is get back to my stage, rather than all the way to the O2 bottle at the exit. The type of dive you are doing, and the failure mode, will determine if this is an advantage or disadvantage. If there's a loss-of-gas failure at maximum penetration, and you're sharing air coming out, I want a stage bottle with gas in it to break the air share. Stages aren't just to get you in to the cave, they're also there as a safety measure to make sure you back out.

Lastly, most divers pull their stages on the way out. They don't make a second dive to recover stages - this ain't the WKPP. However, I don't need the stage to exit. So if I need to move fast for some reason, I can just leave it in the cave as you suggest.
 
So, a 3400 fill dived at 1/2 + 200 would use 1500 going in, 200 on the switches, 1500 exiting, and you have about 200 left you can't breathe. This generaly rule adds a bit of safety and works well elsewhere in Florida. In Mexico, 1/2 or 1/2 + 100 usually works fine. When breathing stages in ths manner you have to reduce back gas breathed by the amount you breathed the stage past 3rds. For a single tank swim dive that is probably enough given the other constraints noted above are met. But, add the peentration distances of scooters, multiple stages, etc. and then you start needing a much greater reserve which is where the general rule of not touching back gas comes in. Again, in some situations you may breathe a small amount of backgas. But, once the dive logistics get to this level, the better decision is usually to bring another stage.

So if you use 1/2+100 in MX (1400psi)... That's 35cf of gas used. So you are now reducing your backgas reserves by 600psi. Assuming a typical 3100psi fill you now have 2500psi to work with. 2500/3 = 800 psi (1/3rds) penetration ok.

But if you use 2 stages that's 70cf used. So 3100 minus 1200(?) = 1900psi left to work with on the back. 1900/3 = 600psi (1/3rds) penetration ok? Basically are you assuming that every stage bottle is kaput or just one or somthing else?? I can see laws of diminishing returns on this exercise leading to 100% backgas reserve once you get into ~3 stages.

Gas planning can get more complex, but if you are actually learning anything from this, doing so would be a bad idea.

Umm not for my brain.

I like backing off limits, just not sure what other diver's rationale may be and under what circumstances, hence the thread.
 
Breathing your stages completely down leaves no backup.
You have misread

1/2+200 psi = dropping a 3000psi stage at 1700.
On the exit you have ~100 for the switch (1600 in there now)
As you reach the next stage there's 300 remaining
100 more to switch to the next stage out
200 psi remains in the bottle effectively unusable.
 
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