Split off discussion of differences in healthcare systems

[drbill]

I recently decided I would like to head to South America to do a few dives on that continent. Due to my cancer, my son is quite concerned about medical care should I need it while there. I'm not going to let that concern spoil a bucket list trip.

As for "free" health care, of course we all end up paying for it one way or another. I'd just prefer it be done through taxes rather than a process that makes CEOs of health care companies incredibly rich at my expense!

 

[RayfromTX]

Taking away the mechanism where profit motives funnel money into the hands of policy makers would be beneficial as well. Say what you want about bureaucrats but I prefer the level most of them operate on better than the powerbrokers that currently make our healthcare decisions for us with their paid lackeys in congress. Call me naive but stock values shouldn't be involved in healthcare.

 

[uncfnp]

I don’t have an answer. I just know that every time the government gets more involved, things seem to get worse. The regulations they have enacted to “improve” care means the typical family doctor has to be more focused on clicking points on the computer then talking with the patient. I don’t have the numbers but I would not be surprised to see a fairly large percentage of healthcare capital and time used to meet the “red tape” requirements.

No one is blameless. For profit healthcare organizations target profits, just like every other corporation. But we as health care users are guilty as well. We want it all, we want it now and we want to live forever (despite our own poor choices). And the more regulations are enacted the more we all (patients, providers, organizations, corporations) work to get around them.

 

[RayfromTX]

Obamacare was written by the multi-national corporations. It addressed preexisting conditions and expanded coverage but did nothing to take control of our healthcare system away from big pharma and the insurance companies.

 

[Storker]

Regarding the problems in finnish healthcare

What you're saying doesn't quite square with what these Finns are saying. Why do those people seem to disagree so thoroughly with what you seem to say?

 

[taimen]

Yet, Finland still has an ongoing parlamentary crisis with the prime minister resigned due to issues with healthcare reform.
I don't really understand your agenda with this Storker. I have made my point clear enough. The number of private insurances surging is clear enough indicator on how people really feel about the quality of public services.

 

[taimen]

Why do those people seem to disagree so thoroughly with what you seem to say?

I can try to answer your question, but I don't expect much from your reply. Frankly, people reply in twitter as they do because they are proud of their country and feel insulted. I can tell that current american leadership is not very popular here at the moment. Not that I would support it either.
Before we ended up in this stupid argument over Finnish healthcare, I tried to contribute to the original topic of this spin off thread (differences in healthcare systems) since I have some insight into this having worked in the field both in Finland and in the US.
My point was, and still is, that claims like the Sanders tweet are overly populist and uneducated. (Haley tweet was really stupid too.)
There are a lot of misconceptions about US medical system in europe and even more about Finnish system in the US.
Most insured US patients would never accept the level of service in Finland, with long waiting times, no possibility for second opinions and limitations in access to some advanced diagnosis and treatments. A growing number of Finns don't accept it either, with a surge in private health insurances. This creates a problem of double expense. First in taxes, and then in insurance fees.
Childbirth and maternal care are one of the success stories in the Finnish healthcare. No doubt about that. Yet, 2/3s of families feel they need private insurance for their infant. On individual level the fine statistics don't help.
A comparable price in a Finnish hospital for an uncomplicated delivery is btw. 2300-3600€. When you compare this to the $12000 American counterpart, there is no obstetrician involved in the price, it is the price for a straightforward uncomplicated delivery handled by midwifes. You don't know which hospital you are assigned to until the delivery starts and you are allowed to call the service hotline, and you don't know (and can't choose) who will be responsible for your care. These type of differences explain the price difference.
I also know that most insured americans do expect more personal care and choice.

 

[BRT]

I can try to answer your question, but I don't expect much from your reply. Frankly, people reply in twitter as they do because they are proud for their country and feel insulted. I can tell that current american leadership is not very popular here at the moment. Not that I would support it either.
Before we ended up in this stupid argument over Finnish healthcare, I tried to contribute to the original topic of this spin off thread (differences in healthcare systems) since I have some insight into this having worked in the field both in Finland and in the US.
My point was, and still is, that claims like the Sanders tweet are overly populist and uneducated. (Haley tweet was really stupid too.)
There are a lot of misconceptions about US medical system in europe and even more about Finnish system in the US.
Most insured US patients would never accept the level of service in Finland, with long waiting times, no possibility for second opinions and limitations in access to some advanced diagnosis and treatments. A growing number of Finns don't accept it either, with a surge in private health insurances. This creates a problem of double expense. First in taxes, and then in insurance fees.
Childbirth and maternal care are one of the success stories in the Finnish healthcare. No doubt about that. Yet, 2/3s of families feel they need private insurance for their infant. On individual level the fine statistics don't help.
A comparable price in a Finnish hospital for an uncomplicated delivery is btw. 2300-3600€. When you compare this to the $12000 American counterpart, there is no obstetrician involved in the price, it is the price for a straightforward uncomplicated delivery handled by midwifes. You don't know which hospital you are assigned to until the delivery starts and you are allowed to call the service hotline, and you don't know (and can't choose) who will be responsible for your care. This type of differences explain the price difference.
I also know that most insured americans do expect more personal care and choice.

I am trying to imagine my wife or my daughter-in-law accepting the next doctor in line at whatever hospital was available for a delivery. ......Nope....can't.

 

[taimen]

I am trying to imagine my wife or my daughter-in-law accepting the next doctor in line at whatever hospital was available for a delivery. ......Nope....can't.

Note that there is no doctor involved in an uncomplicated delivery in Finland. The midwives are true professionals and do a magnificient job. But this reflects the level of expectations.

 

[Bubblesong]

I gave birth for the first time in UK, ‘97, under the system paid by my taxes, and ‘99 in Mountain View CA, employer insurance.
Both c-sections.
In UK I never saw a doctor until my emergency c-section after 72 hours labor. In USA, I had a scheduled C-section after Dr saw my case was not going v-bac.
Today I find I can’t get a hip resurfacing in USA, but UK has new developments in this, probably due to USA lawsuits after some beginner failures, (cobalt poisonings). But Hip replacents are not the waiting times as in UK. We should cap lawsuits on new tech., or face stagnation in developments.
USA will probably go to. UK system, with private, better, faster, smarter care for the high earners, and wait-for-minimal for the low income. Is this fair?
Fair would be that every kid gets the chance to go to (min) community college to learn to provide healthcare to others, and if they don’t have equality of effort, they don’t ask for equality in outcome. At least we’d have more of various types of Med providers then.
USA system of 8 years through Med school vs 4 years in other countries is a bit different.