Split off discussion of differences in healthcare systems

[Edward3c]

At the point of use, my healthcare is free. Sometimes I have to pay a co-pay for regular stuff. But, otherwise, I flash my healthcare card and I am admitted.

Optometry and one pair of glasses per year are free at the point of use.

Dental cleanings and one x-ray set are free per year at the point of use.

I get to choose my doctors and services. Do you?

My point is, no system is perfect. Our system needs a comprehensive overhaul of laws that govern the system. The government is the biggest problem with our system.

I know of many articles detailing the basic issues that have been associated with NHS. Mostly low end sanitation and bed availability issues. Your government does respond to those issues it seems. But we don't have chronic sanitation nor bed availability issues here.

In our country, whether you can afford it or not, you get healthcare. It is the law.

No system is perfect. Yours has its issues as all of the others do.

For top line healthcare procedures, people from around the world come to the US because we have the most cutting edge procedures in most every city without rationing.

We do pay for it though.
markm[


Hello Mark

I am cautious with my answers because in truth I seldom use the medical services in the UK, so have little experience. I guess as an adult male of working age, although now in my 50's I am still relatively low risk of needing medical intervention.

I have a local surgery in my village with 5 Doctors, this is the surgery I am registered at so, general medical matters I would go here, unless I am away elsewhere in the country. There are similar surgeries in the two adjoining villages, one of which I used to be registered at, prior to moving to my current location.
I also have the benefit of geography, in that I have a world leader in heart surgery locally (which my late partner chose to be refereed to when she had a suspected heart issue). I am also mid way between a world leading teaching hospital, in Cambridge, a second hospital in the other direction which my father was taken to when he had a bursts aortal aneurism, which in 90% of cases is fatal, thankfully he is still with us.
To be honest, not being in medicine, I would have no idea how to select a specialist consultant for medical care. I would rely on my GP, and the hospital team to advise me. I don't have the expert knowledge to 'choose' a consultant.

I have never had to provide any form of identification when seeking medical care in the UK. I've done the odd bit of walking wounded stuff, concussion, mild head injury, broken limbs, serious lacerations and the like. A couple of ambulance rides. I think all have been recreational injuries, mounting biking, rugby and other sports injuries. The only diving injury the springs to mind is a diver landed on my head entering the water. But that was only concussion and 10 stitches, but did mean they wouldn't let me dive for two days .

The only experience of more serious matters is really with my parents, in particular my father, cancer scares, heart issues etc. The care he has received has been very quick and good. As it happens he's got an appointment with a specialist Wednesday, having seen his GP Friday with an issue they want to check out, but he is almost 90, so health problems at his age are not a surprise.
Funnily enough my mum (in her 70s) had a blue light ride (ambulance), a couple of years ago after her pony threw her. She walked into the local doctors, after putting the pony back in the paddock, and as a precaution they insisted she went to the hospital. She did look like she had done a round with Mike Tyson once the bruising and swelling came out.

Gareth

Just adding th Garth’s comments. In Scotland we don’t pay for prescriptions. I even got my travel inoculations on the NHS, less anti malaria.

 

[KenGordon]

Just adding th Garth’s comments. In Scotland we don’t pay for prescriptions. I even got my travel inoculations on the NHS, less anti malaria.

Annoyingly when you live in England but need a prescription in Scotland you still pay...

Travel stuff is approximately as expensive at my GP as at a completely private place round the corner from work. Of course part of the complication is that the GP is likely a privately company/partnership.

 

[TMHeimer]

TM Heimer

I am going to get myself in all sorts of trouble here over accuracy. (I am happy to be corrected if I make an error!)

Medical Care
This is free at point of use (its paid for through taxation).

Medical care includes Emergency Care, and access to your GP.
There is a fixed prescription fee for each drug you have. However, there is a ceiling, if you are using a lot of drugs for a serious illness, of illnesses like diabetes, you pay a fixed fee.
Dental care is subsidised,
Optical care, the checkup is free, but glasses (and contact lenses) you pay for.

Emergency care is excellent, but during busy periods (Pub closing on a Saturday night?), they run a triage / first come system.
Serious illness. Treatment for cancer and other serious illnesses is free and very good.
There is a waiting list, especially for less serious issues and cosmetic treatments.

There is criticism of the NHS, waiting lists, delays in treatment, some treatments not available. Some drugs that are not available from the NHS due to cost. But as systems go its pretty good.

Currently we have the same EEA arrangement in the EEC that Storker has. However, we are leaving, so that will probably go. The EU appears to want to cut its nose off to spite its face, so although the UK is happy to keep the EEA arrangement, I assume the EU will cancel it.

I have DAN for diving medical cover out of the UK (even the EU). Its a minimal cost and means I'm covered, for airlift, medical and repatriation. That is with the exception of the USA - DAN want extra for the USA. (Similarly, my company has specialist medical insurance for employees working out of the UK - which we pay a huge addition premium for because we work in the USA ;( ).

All in all pretty similar to Canada (Nova Scotia to be specific, though they're all pretty similar).

 

[BRT]

Scandinavian checking in.

If I'm admitted to a hospital - like when I had my appendix taken out - I pay zero. AFAIK I'd pay exactly the same if I needed a helicopter ride and a chamber ride.
For outpatient treatments, like a fracture, they charge a co-pay of some 2-300kr, or some 25-35 USD per visit.
Life-critical medications like insulin, BP meds or cancer meds are heavily subsidized; I pay some 200kr for a three months' supply of my BP meds at the pharmacy, and meds issued during hospital visits (say, chemotherapy) are no cost.
GP visit: co-pay of some 2-300kr.
There's a cap on total co-pay in one year, I believe it's some 2500kr or around 300 USD. If my co-pays exceed that, I'm getting a refund.
Dentist: not covered for adults, covered for minors
Optician: not covered

And it's financed through my taxes, which, last time I checked were in the low 30s percent of my gross income. That's income tax, property tax etc., but of course not sales tax or special taxes on alcohol, tobacco etc. And I've never taken out a health insurance, only travel insurance. If i travel outside the EEA, l need health coverage in my travel insurance. Inside the EEA I'm covered by mutual agreement, but I should carry a European health coverage card.

What level of sales tax and VAT do you have?

 

[taimen]

Storker seems to report from the one scandinavian country with vast oil wealth. In comparison, other nordic countries have a lot higher tax rates. Typical total tax rate formed by all taxes combined is in the range of 43-46%. The same rate is 32% in the USA.

 

[KenGordon]

All in all pretty similar to Canada (Nova Scotia to be specific, though they're all pretty similar).

It is not.

Somewhere round my house is a bill for $1000 CAD for a hospital visit in Halifax. The relatives I have there seem preoccupied about the cost of drugs. Retired people talking about what coverage they have. They also volunteer for the Red Cross to provide crutches, Zimmer frames and the like.

You you, as a self identified Canadian, arrive in a U.K. hospital you will get treated and no bill will be coming your way.

On the other hand, if you have dark skin and were born in the Caribean, came to the U.K. age 8 and have been paying taxes for 50 years, then they will let you die of cancer.

 

[chillyinCanada]

It is not.

Somewhere round my house is a bill for $1000 CAD for a hospital visit in Halifax. The relatives I have there seem preoccupied about the cost of drugs. Retired people talking about what coverage they have. They also volunteer for the Red Cross to provide crutches, Zimmer frames and the like.

You you, as a self identified Canadian, arrive in a U.K. hospital you will get treated and no bill will be coming your way.

On the other hand, if you have dark skin and were born in the Caribean, came to the U.K. age 8 and have been paying taxes for 50 years, then they will let you die of cancer.

I don't understand what you mean in your last statement.

 

[KenGordon]

I don't understand what you mean in your last statement.

The recent two Tory governments in the U.K. have committed to reducing immigration to the “tens of thousands” annually. At the moment it is of the order of 200 to 400 thousand. This was actually impossible before Brexit as half the immigrants were from EU nations and so if they have a job they have a right to be here.

So, they (Theresa May as Home Secretary) came up with an idea callled the “Hostile Enviroment”, this was after billboards saying “We are coming for YOU!” proved surprisingly ineffective. The idea of the hostile enviroment is to move the implementation of immigration controls from the government to employers, landlords, and public services. So those nasty Canadians will find that they can’t actually rent a flat or get a job without the correct paperwork.

Now, pre the 1970s the paperwork wasn’t all that clever and there are tens of thousands of people who arrive during in the U.K. from Commonwealth contries in the 1950s and so on who do not actually have passports. They are known as the Windrush generation after one of the boat shows used to import them.

Now, without documentation, the Hostile Environment is catching them and they are being deported and healthcare is being withdrawn. If one particular case an old man with cancer was told he had to find Athens or hundreds of thousands of pounds to pay for his cancer treatment.

Windrush row: I was denied cancer treatment

Windrush man charged for NHS cancer treatment loses legal challenge against 'hostile environment' regulations

It is an example of how nasty, basically racist, policy hurts real people.

 

[Storker]

What level of sales tax and VAT do you have?

Good point, it's of course total tax revenue which is relevant, not whether it's income tax or sales tax. See below.

Storker seems to report from the one scandinavian country with vast oil wealth. In comparison, other nordic countries have a lot higher tax rates. Typical total tax rate formed by all taxes combined is in the range of 43-46%. The same rate is 32% in the USA.

Red herring fallacy. The real difference in tax rate isn't between the different Nordic countries, it's between countries with proper single-payer healthcare (i.e. Europe) and the US. Just back in 2010, Finland and Iceland were the two Nordic countries with the lowest total tax revenues as % of GDP, and the tax level in a country goes up and down depending on whether the country has a conservative administration or a social democratic/Labor party administration. See Total tax revenues (% GDP) Also, Figure 4 in Revenue Statistics 2018: Tax revenue trends in the OECD (warning: PDF)

 

[chillyinCanada]

The recent two Tory governments in the U.K. have committed to reducing immigration to the “tens of thousands” annually. At the moment it is of the order of 200 to 400 thousand. This was actually impossible before Brexit as half the immigrants were from EU nations and so if they have a job they have a right to be here.

So, they (Theresa May as Home Secretary) came up with an idea callled the “Hostile Enviroment”, this was after billboards saying “We are coming for YOU!” proved surprisingly ineffective. The idea of the hostile enviroment is to move the implementation of immigration controls from the government to employers, landlords, and public services. So those nasty Canadians will find that they can’t actually rent a flat or get a job without the correct paperwork.

Now, pre the 1970s the paperwork wasn’t all that clever and there are tens of thousands of people who arrive during in the U.K. from Commonwealth contries in the 1950s and so on who do not actually have passports. They are known as the Windrush generation after one of the boat shows used to import them.

Now, without documentation, the Hostile Environment is catching them and they are being deported and healthcare is being withdrawn. If one particular case an old man with cancer was told he had to find Athens or hundreds of thousands of pounds to pay for his cancer treatment.

Windrush row: I was denied cancer treatment

Windrush man charged for NHS cancer treatment loses legal challenge against 'hostile environment' regulations

It is an example of how nasty, basically racist, policy hurts real people.

This says he's getting the treatment. Sounds like it was an administration bullocks.

Windrush row: I was denied cancer treatment