Split fin kick style?

[crosing]

 

[Twistedarts]

Ok, this risks falling back into a "which is better" post, and that is not what I am asking. I am asking what, if anything, I am doing wrong with my current fin. I have a set of Atomic splits and recently returned from an ocean dive. I hit a little current and found it difficult to keep up with the Guide who had paddles when we were returning to the boat. Not to say that my kick could probably use some work, but I was a competitive swimmer for years as a kid, so I have some idea how to flutter kick. I felt like I was in first gear on a ten speed - fluttering like crazy for every single kick of the guide. The only real kick I could use when I needed to get anywhere was a sort of Side-Stroke kick, only not on my side. For those with experience with both or splits, is there a trick to getting more power from a split fin? Naturally others have blamed the splits, but I know there are others who swear by them, so I know that they work for some and, logically, there must be a way to make them work. I'll probably try a pair of paddles, but I want to be able to use my splits as well.

(BTW - I did search first, but kicking style kind of gets lost in the which is better posts).

as a tusa zoom owner/user i can tell you the best kick i found is a bicycle kick. frog works ok but as mentioned it is more from the ankle. in calm water they live up to thier name...zoom. i have knee probs so the bicycle kick works great for me with the splits.

i have tried to pull off most styles with them and for the most part you can do them, however, they do have a way they liked to be kicked and i have found it limiting. i have been stuck in current, tried to swim my gear up and all i can say is that in those circumstances they are worthless. knees be damned as i will be adding a pair of jets to my arsenal, try punching through 6-7 foot seas in a current and you will see what i mean.

any thoughts on manta rays? i've only used them in a quarry.

 

[BDSC]

It's about time to hear from someone with "Force Fins" don't ya think.

I just bought a pair of the Scubapro Seawing Novas for my trip next week to Bonaire. I'll be curious to see how they perform.

 

[fnfalman]

As long as your assumption that "silt is only located on the bottom" is actually valid where you're diving. Otherwise this kick does an excellent job of kicking silt DOWN from anyplace ABOVE your fins - whatever fin you're wearing.

Even if the silt is on the top as well as the bottom, all you have to do is straighten your legs out instead of curled up and make sure that the toes are fully pointed and flick your ankles ever lightly.

 

[jstamets]

It's about time to hear from someone with "Force Fins" don't ya think.

I just bought a pair of the Scubapro Seawing Novas for my trip next week to Bonaire. I'll be curious to see how they perform.

I followed one of my dive instructors around a quarry and he was wearing force fins - it looked like little bombs going off in the silt 4' below him. Dunno if it was his kick style or not, but I felt bad for folks behind us.

 

[fnfalman]

Second, as can be seen in the "29-lb lift" video, to produce the same power, a long, floppy fin requires a faster kick cycle or a larger amplitude (up-and-down motion) kick, or both. A larger amplitude will generate a larger wake pattern and more turbulence behind the diver. This may be why many divers report that split fins seem to kick up more silt.

Faster cycle, yes. Larger amplitude, no. When you kick your split fin with thaat large of an amplitude then you defeat its design. And yes, this is why lots of divers kicking up silts and not going anywhere in the split fins.

Rather like a propeller has to churn a lot faster than a steamship's paddle wheels.

 

[jstamets]

The video is the third of three videos posted by "Dave", post # 13 in the thread:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/fins-masks-snorkels/322716-split-fin-vs-straight-fin.html

You will see that a diver can "swim up" 29 lbs with both blade and split fins. If you watch closely and time the kicks with a stop watch, you will see that the kicking is much faster with the split fins than with the blades.

Feeling stupid - I don't see any video links on the post.

 

[BDSC]

Feeling stupid - I don't see any video links on the post.

Click on the picture with the title.

 

[jstamets]

Click on the picture with the title.

Ah - the invisible picture blocked by the firewall here! HTML is a wonderful thing. Sometimes.

 

[jstamets]

First off, you can do any kick in split fins, including back kicking. I think it might be quite difficult to LEARN some of the kicks in splits, but I have done a dive in splits after I learned the kicks, and they are all possible. They feel funny, and the back kick isn't as efficient, but they're doable.

Second, if you are swimming into current, the frog kick is an awful kick. This is not me speaking; this is David Rhea, who is one of the most experienced cave divers there is, and who dives extensively in Florida caves where you work against strong flow. The frog kick's central characteristic is a glide phase. Using a kick with a glide phase against water flowing toward you is less effective, because during that phase, you are slowing down or even moving backwards. The flutter kick provides propulsive force all the time, and works much better in current or flow.

If you look at paddle fins versus splits, one of the big differences is stiffness. As you move your foot through the down or upstroke of a flutter kick, the stiff fins will continue to "bite" the water and provide propulsion. However, splits will flex, and once they have flexed maximally, they provide no further resistance to the water, and therefore no further forward force. So the leg excursion which is creating propulsive force is shorter, and the frequency has to be higher, in split fins. The effort expended by your muscles per stroke is lower, but the number of strokes required to cover a given distance is greater.

Faster cycle, yes. Larger amplitude, no. When you kick your split fin with thaat large of an amplitude then you defeat its design. And yes, this is why lots of divers kicking up silts and not going anywhere in the split fins.

Rather like a propeller has to churn a lot faster than a steamship's paddle wheels.

Ah, this is the root of the issue with me. This totally jibes with my experience - I felt like I was riding a bike in first gear - lots and lots of really easy kicks with no speed. The natural response is to take bigger kicks, but that won't work in splits. It seems the downside to that is you are using only a small percentage of muscle, but then again, maybe that is a good thing? Less oxygen usage? Less nitrogen absorption? I don't know - which uses more air - using a larger portion of muscle slowly or a smaller portion of muscle quickly?