Spearfishing with a rebreather

[Hetland]

I will keep my eye out for the underwater police. The last time I checked the US Constitution our founding fathers wanted to give us all liberties, to include the right to bear arms to include slings. I agree that catch limits are the way to regulate the fishing industry not the meathod of catch. Just like hunting it does not matter how you kill the deer, but rather how many deer are killed.

So it's okay to hunt deer using a spotlight at night? What about using explosive mines to hunt deer?

In RB3 Forum it is recommended that all rebreathers have an OC bailout. So it comes down to training and RB's are safer as you have OC, SC RB, and Manual bailouts if trained properly.

And for some reason, the death rate per dive is somehow higher on rebreathers than on open circuit... I wonder why that is?

The bottom line is Bill you are frobidding people to gather food

I guess if you're hungry, you shouldn't have purchased that $7,000 rebreather to go hunt fish in open water.

and where else in America do laws like this exist?

Which states allow you to hunt deer under spotlights? More than a few probably outlaw hunting over bait, dynamite fishing, gill nets, electricity, chemicals, etc. Those fish don't belong to the guy that can afford a rebreather, they belong to every citizen of the state, and/or country. It is a shared resource, and who denies that fishing with a rebreather adds an incredible advantage over OC scuba and free-diving?

rebreather diving while spearfishing/underwater hunting is legal, and common in NJ. There is no significant difference between the size and amount of fish these guys get on any given dive and what I get on OC (deco diving). we all follow the same bag limits. We all follow the same laws - and mostly, their bottom time is not that much more than mine.

How many total hunting dives are completed in NJ vs. The number completed in Florida. I'd bet the difference is statistically significant.

That being said, any of us - OC or CC - could limit out on ANY dive. The difference that is not being taken into consideration is the overwhelmingly common standard amongst spearfishermen "only kill what I eat, always eat what I kill".

It is absurd to suggest that a rebreather can have any significant impact on fish populations considering commercial gear wipes out entire schools, entire reefs, and entire boatloads at a time. The impact of recreational, law abiding, fisherman - whether it is rod/reel, spear - or any other means......is so miniscule in the grand scheme of things - that to waste time creating, lobbying for, and enforcing these laws is nothing other than misguided, mislead, and uninformed.

Ever stalk a big black grouper, or cubera? I know a few resident fish that have avoided capture for months on deeper sites. These same fish would be quickly slaughtered by someone diving a rebreather, because they could sit down there for an hour without making those scary bubbles. Bigger, older fish make more baby fish than smaller, younger fish.

I'll also repeat my point above that there are terrestrial hunting laws that mirror what's happening underwater with rebreathers.

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I honestly don't understand the fuss. The rules are reasonable. If you can't take fish on OC, or a breath hold, then grab a fishing rod, or take a spearfishing class.

 

[manni-yunk]

So it's okay to hunt deer using a spotlight at night? What about using explosive mines to hunt deer?



And for some reason, the death rate per dive is somehow higher on rebreathers than on open circuit... I wonder why that is?



I guess if you're hungry, you shouldn't have purchased that $7,000 rebreather to go hunt fish in open water.



Which states allow you to hunt deer under spotlights? More than a few probably outlaw hunting over bait, dynamite fishing, gill nets, electricity, chemicals, etc. Those fish don't belong to the guy that can afford a rebreather, they belong to every citizen of the state, and/or country. It is a shared resource, and who denies that fishing with a rebreather adds an incredible advantage over OC scuba and free-diving?



How many total hunting dives are completed in NJ vs. The number completed in Florida. I'd bet the difference is statistically significant.



Ever stalk a big black grouper, or cubera? I know a few resident fish that have avoided capture for months on deeper sites. These same fish would be quickly slaughtered by someone diving a rebreather, because they could sit down there for an hour without making those scary bubbles. Bigger, older fish make more baby fish than smaller, younger fish.

I'll also repeat my point above that there are terrestrial hunting laws that mirror what's happening underwater with rebreathers.

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I honestly don't understand the fuss. The rules are reasonable. If you can't take fish on OC, or a breath hold, then grab a fishing rod, or take a spearfishing class.

You make a lot of assumptions, bad ones, use flawed analogies (fatally flawed) and clearly have no clue about the demographics in NJ, in particular a state where much of the diving is NON - cave, technical diving.


Your hunting law analogy is COMPLETELY wrong - and out of context.

Not worth continuing in this debate as I dont believe anyone is changing anyone else's mind.


When it all comes down to it, we have enough....no change that - TO MANY laws, including fish regs, on the books. The last thing we need is the government being tricked into believing that a RB diver is going to make any change VS free and OC divers - to the fish population - WHILE COMMERCIAL INTERESTS and their bycatch are COMPLETELY WIPING OUT fish populations.


The entire premise of comparing this to hunting of animals will LITTLE TO NO commercial pressure, REAL statistical population data...and the limits placed on how to hunt them.....is comparing apples to hand grenades.

Good luck.

AND for the record - Im not a RB diver, and never will be. I have been active in local petitioning for better SCIENCE and EVIDENCE based fishery management decisions. Emotional, NON EVIDENCE BASED OPINIONS mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING....except that they lead to uneducated feel good legislation that costs money and accomplishes nothing other that rework in a few years.

 

[Hank49]

Ever stalk a big black grouper, or cubera? I know a few resident fish that have avoided capture for months on deeper sites. These same fish would be quickly slaughtered by someone diving a rebreather, because they could sit down there for an hour without making those scary bubbles.

I've stalked a few. Actually it's hard to stalk them because once they're educated, they'll bug out fast at the sight of a diver from a distance. I don't dive rebreathers but I would bet a new Wong 55 hybrid that the fish will learn. Yes, you may get that one big one but the others will see or sense the struggle and learn that the silent fat thing sitting there is dangerous.
We hunt snappers every week here. Yes, you can free dive down to 50-70 feet, lay there and a few will come to you. But once you shoot a fish or two, it's pretty much game over. They know.
The only hesitation I have with spearfishing on an RB is the danger.

 

[PeterNBiddle]

I assumed if we weren't seeing big fish it was because they had been fished out via commercial (non-diving) fisheries.

I'd never thought that one of the reasons we might not see big fish is because they are still around but afraid of human spear fishers.

 

[Superlyte27]

I've actually done a bit of research on this. I've been a spear fisherman for a while, but only recently (last two years) a rebreather diver. I know spots 40'ish miles out of Daytona that are impossible to rod and reel fish or spearfish because of the depths and the nature of the wreck. The top of the wreck sits in 190'ish feet of water and goes down from there. So, you catch a grouper on a rod and reel and the grouper shoots into the wreck cutting off the line. Spear fisherman don't generally dive to 200'ish feet to spearfish (except the really hard core).

So, what we have is a wreck that is pack full of really big fish. I'm going to go shoot them. Fortunately, the ban on spearfishing in Florida on a rebreather is only a Florida law. It is NOT a federal law. So, once I get three miles out, guess what? I'm no longer in Florida waters and I can shoot the fish. I've checked with FWC and as long as I don't STOP in Florida waters until I get to my dock, I'm in no way violating the law. Yippie!

Now, the really good spear fisherman shoots his limit anyway. If we're allowed 4 grouper, we shoot 4 grouper. Or if the boat is allowed 24 and the other 5 divers only shot 4, a good diver will shoot the remaining 19. This is not abnormal.

So, the question is, will me diving a rebreather allow me to shoot more than the limit? Of course not. More than likely, the complexity of the rebreather will actually throttle my abilities shooting fish for some time at least. So, why do I want to do it? Because I don't like OC anymore.

 

[Hetland]

You make a lot of assumptions, bad ones, use flawed analogies (fatally flawed) and clearly have no clue about the demographics in NJ, in particular a state where much of the diving is NON - cave, technical diving.

So you're saying there are as many spearfishing dives completed in NJ as there are in FL? I find that difficult to believe.

Your hunting law analogy is COMPLETELY wrong - and out of context.

Please be specific.

Not worth continuing in this debate as I dont believe anyone is changing anyone else's mind.

Probably not, but reasoned arguments are worth consideration.

When it all comes down to it, we have enough....no change that - TO MANY laws, including fish regs, on the books. The last thing we need is the government being tricked into believing that a RB diver is going to make any change VS free and OC divers - to the fish population - WHILE COMMERCIAL INTERESTS and their bycatch are COMPLETELY WIPING OUT fish populations.

I disagree on your RB point, but readily agree with your commercial fishing point. I would stand beside you in your fight for reasonable management in the commercial sector.

The entire premise of comparing this to hunting of animals will LITTLE TO NO commercial pressure, REAL statistical population data...and the limits placed on how to hunt them.....is comparing apples to hand grenades.

B******t. We're talking about the equivalent of night hunting. You can't spotlight deer, and in Florida, you can't hunt with a RB. There are safety, and conservation reasons behind both laws, and your injection of commercial fishing into the topic is a diversion.

AND for the record - Im not a RB diver, and never will be. I have been active in local petitioning for better SCIENCE and EVIDENCE based fishery management decisions. Emotional, NON EVIDENCE BASED OPINIONS mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING....except that they lead to uneducated feel good legislation that costs money and accomplishes nothing other that rework in a few years.

Again, we can agree here. Management should be based on facts and science when available.

It's a fact that more people die on CC than on OC. It's a fact that RB's allow you to stay longer. It's a fact that deeper dives requiring helium are more economical on CC than on OC. There's anecdotal evidence that divers not blowing bubbles are able to approach wary fish that flee once OC divers show up. It's a fact that bigger fish (often the smartest and most wary) lay more eggs, and it's a fact that a properly licensed person can spearfish in Florida with either OC or breath-hold diving.

---------- Post added July 1st, 2013 at 11:11 AM ----------

I've stalked a few. Actually it's hard to stalk them because once they're educated, they'll bug out fast at the sight of a diver from a distance. I don't dive rebreathers but I would bet a new Wong 55 hybrid that the fish will learn. Yes, you may get that one big one but the others will see or sense the struggle and learn that the silent fat thing sitting there is dangerous.
We hunt snappers every week here. Yes, you can free dive down to 50-70 feet, lay there and a few will come to you. But once you shoot a fish or two, it's pretty much game over. They know.
The only hesitation I have with spearfishing on an RB is the danger.

And that's why it's reasonable to allow breath-hold spearfishing. You get the benefit of being silent, with the cost of not being able to stay long enough to allow the fish to calm back down.

With OC, I'm making all those bubble noises, I can stay longer, but at the cost of the noise. We might be able to get one or two bigger fish, but we won't limit out on super-breeder gags, blacks, snappers, etc.

CC allows the time of scuba (and much more) with the silence of the breath-hold.

I assumed if we weren't seeing big fish it was because they had been fished out via commercial (non-diving) fisheries.

I'd never thought that one of the reasons we might not see big fish is because they are still around but afraid of human spear fishers.

I've personally seen those giant gags, blacks, and cuberas hauling ass into a wreck as soon as a diver gets in sight. All of my RB friends tell me they see those bigger fish all the time, but they leave once the first bubble-blower shows up on a site.

So, once I get three miles out, guess what? I'm no longer in Florida waters and I can shoot the fish.

Just so there's no confusion for anyone else, it's 3 miles on the Atlantic side, and 9 miles on the Gulf side.

 

[manni-yunk]

Please help me understand how these" facts" at all relevant to fishery management?CC deaths VS OC - COMPLETELY irrelevant to fisheries management.Staying longer on CC vs OC - not really. In general yes, but at spearfishing depths, if someone really wanted, I could carry enough tanks and stages to get me through the dive. Plus, my point is that you would LIMIT out of fish long before you run out of air or scrubber time - so once again, this "fact" is compeltely irrelevanteconomics of Helium and CC vs OC, once again, COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to fisheries management.You seem to have a very weak argument so you want to distort the argument itself into an OC vs CC conversation, and not at all focused on science and evidence based evidence for fishery management decisions.Even your "anecdotal" part is NON SCIENCE based.

 

[Hetland]

Please help me understand how these" facts" at all relevant to fishery management?CC deaths VS OC - COMPLETELY irrelevant to fisheries management.Staying longer on CC vs OC - not really. In general yes, but at spearfishing depths, if someone really wanted, I could carry enough tanks and stages to get me through the dive. Plus, my point is that you would LIMIT out of fish long before you run out of air or scrubber time - so once again, this "fact" is compeltely irrelevanteconomics of Helium and CC vs OC, once again, COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to fisheries management.You seem to have a very weak argument so you want to distort the argument itself into an OC vs CC conversation, and not at all focused on science and evidence based evidence for fishery management decisions.

It's relevant because it changes the collection techniques. One of the reasons it's illegal to hunt under spotlights is because it's "unfair". Any doofus with a q-beam and a rifle can shoot one deer a day, every day, for the length of the season, and take more than his fair share of a public resource. There has to be some work put into "hunting" (that's why they don't call it "shooting"), otherwise you would have yearly per-person limits on resources that would be mostly unenforceable.

Management is about balance. Breath-holding and OC have advantages, and disadvantages. CC has mostly advantages, with the primary disadvantage being that it's easier for the pilot to kill themselves. Management is also about people not killing themselves in pursuit of the resource.

Staying longer is relevant because a 60 pound rebreather is easier to hunt with than a set of doubles, and stage bottles. Less expensive (per technical dive) too, because helium prices are relevant. Very few people are going to spend $200 in breathing gas to camp out at 250ft waiting for a grouper. Rebreathers make these deeper dives more economical, which increases the likelihood that folks will make an effort to take out the super-breeders.

Even your "anecdotal" part is NON SCIENCE based.

Yes, that's basically the definition of the word "anecdotal".

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Look, I'm not against spearfishing, I love it in fact, but the resource has to be managed, and, in my eyes, rebreathers are an unfair advantage. Not because it makes it easier to fill your creel limit, but because it makes it easier to take out the fish that make the most baby fish, and we need more baby fish to make big fish.

My personal opinion is good for absolutely nothing. No one listens to me anyway. But for what it's worth, I would completely withdraw my CC objections if slot limits were imposed. I think it's better for the resource if I take 6 small snapper home vs. 2 really big ones (the smaller ones taste better anyway).

 

[manni-yunk]

It's relevant because it changes the collection techniques. One of the reasons it's illegal to hunt under spotlights is because it's "unfair". Any doofus with a q-beam and a rifle can shoot one deer a day, every day, for the length of the season, and take more than his fair share of a public resource. There has to be some work put into "hunting" (that's why they don't call it "shooting"), otherwise you would have yearly per-person limits on resources that would be mostly unenforceable.

Management is about balance. Breath-holding and OC have advantages, and disadvantages. CC has mostly advantages, with the primary disadvantage being that it's easier for the pilot to kill themselves. Management is also about people not killing themselves in pursuit of the resource.

Staying longer is relevant because a 60 pound rebreather is easier to hunt with than a set of doubles, and stage bottles. Less expensive (per technical dive) too, because helium prices are relevant. Very few people are going to spend $200 in breathing gas to camp out at 250ft waiting for a grouper. Rebreathers make these deeper dives more economical, which increases the likelihood that folks will make an effort to take out the super-breeders.



Yes, that's basically the definition of the word "anecdotal".

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Look, I'm not against spearfishing, I love it in fact, but the resource has to be managed, and, in my eyes, rebreathers are an unfair advantage. Not because it makes it easier to fill your creel limit, but because it makes it easier to take out the fish that make the most baby fish, and we need more baby fish to make big fish.

My personal opinion is good for absolutely nothing. No one listens to me anyway. But for what it's worth, I would completely withdraw my CC objections if slot limits were imposed. I think it's better for the resource if I take 6 small snapper home vs. 2 really big ones (the smaller ones taste better anyway).

You and I disagree about almost everything. For instance, its not about making it "fair" for the fish, that is absurd. I could dispute the entire post - but as Ive already mentioned, it would be an excercise in futility.


However - on the slot limits - I wholeheartedly agree. I believe the entire concept of only keeping fish ABOVE a certain size, and not having an upper limit - is wrong.


When Striped Bass had a slot limit fish, the species rebounded quickly.

I think letting go the fish that have already proven to have the propensity to survive to get larger and reach breeding size.....should be released more often.


I am a die hard fisherman, diver, spearfisherman, etc - but I have debated this topic with old school fisherman until I am blue in the face.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I've actually done a bit of research on this. I've been a spear fisherman for a while, but only recently (last two years) a rebreather diver. I know spots 40'ish miles out of Daytona that are impossible to rod and reel fish or spearfish because of the depths and the nature of the wreck. The top of the wreck sits in 190'ish feet of water and goes down from there. So, you catch a grouper on a rod and reel and the grouper shoots into the wreck cutting off the line. Spear fisherman don't generally dive to 200'ish feet to spearfish (except the really hard core).

So, what we have is a wreck that is pack full of really big fish. I'm going to go shoot them. Fortunately, the ban on spearfishing in Florida on a rebreather is only a Florida law. It is NOT a federal law. So, once I get three miles out, guess what? I'm no longer in Florida waters and I can shoot the fish. I've checked with FWC and as long as I don't STOP in Florida waters until I get to my dock, I'm in no way violating the law. Yippie!

Now, the really good spear fisherman shoots his limit anyway. If we're allowed 4 grouper, we shoot 4 grouper. Or if the boat is allowed 24 and the other 5 divers only shot 4, a good diver will shoot the remaining 19. This is not abnormal.

So, the question is, will me diving a rebreather allow me to shoot more than the limit? Of course not. More than likely, the complexity of the rebreather will actually throttle my abilities shooting fish for some time at least. So, why do I want to do it? Because I don't like OC anymore.

I think you MAY want to research further... I read this somewhere??

In the South Atlantic EEZ, a person using a rebreather may not harvest South Atlantic snapper-grouper with spearfishing gear. The possession of such snapper-grouper while in the water with a rebreather is prima facie evidence that such fish was harvested with spearfishing gear while using a rebreather.