SP MK25/S600 Freezeups

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As usual, Genesis gave a comprehensive analysis. However, we need to cut to the chase. NO piston regulator is suitable (read 'safe') for ice diving save the strangely (or wonderously, if you like) designed Blizzard. Mickey Mouse fixes like 'detuning' are, or should be, unacceptable. Why accept lowered regulator performance to get the regulator to allegedly do what Scubapro claims it will do in the first place, work flawlessly in cold water? Get another regulator for ice diving. Some options would be the Apex, Legend (LX) or aforementioned Blizzard.

Scubapro has consistently, and knowingly, made false claims concerning cold water performance. Last year, when a respected British magazine reported problems Scubapro had a hissy fit, claiming that their regs absolutely would perform well in cold water. At the very time that they made this statement they were secretly designing a revised cold water version of the MK25 which is now being sold in European test markets.
 
Where can one get them reasonably?

I can get kits for the SPs. I'd consider shifting to Apeks for my firsts (I like the SP seconds), but parts is a problem, since I will NOT pay the overinflated LDS prices!
 
My LDS has ordered the kits to upgrade the 1st stages to the newer design, when we were talking about it yesterday, we decided to try two things, 1 upgrade a reg with the new parts, 2 adjust the IP down 5 PSI dive both to know the differance between parts and IP adjustment, as it pertains to preformance. This time carrying pony bottles in case of another problem.
 
Hmmm... What you guys are discussing sounds mighty familiar. I have a SP Mk18 1st stage, S600 2nd stage primary and R380 octo. Similar problem with freezeups in fresh water 45F or below. I am going to reserve final judgement on SP until I complete a summer of diving on the new set of Poseidon Jetstream/Odins that I have bought. If the Poseidons pan out like I expect, then I am going to consign my SP setup to warm water weenie-dom. Someone in here mentioned a contest S600 vs Odin, well the match is ON..... Will keep you guys posted as to the results.
 
I dove my MK25 with the new Anti freeze body over this past weekend in 41 and 47 degree water and it perormed like a dream. I have a S600 and a G250HP seconds. I would look more into the technical setting or the quality of the air you are breathing. Like I stated mine just came back from being serviced and they worked great in the cold water.
 
I have had my reg upgraded with the AF kit. My LDS told me my IP prior to the work of installing the AF kit was at 160psi. It is now at 155 and could even be adjusted lower if needed for cold deep water. But, since its now Jun I think Im out of the cold water time of year, so it will have to wait until I move to Pa in July. I am sure Ill find plenty of cold water there.

Thanks to everone who provided some input to this.

If you are wondering about the AF kit cost, my LDS charged me $46 for the AF upgrade kit which included the new body and piston, and $20 for the service.
 
I use air and Nitrox run thru a well maintained and filtered LDS compressor system. We have "detuned", fiddled and adjusted the S600 numerous times, to no avail. One thing I have noticed about the S600 is that it REALLY loves to freeze up on second dives, more than likely due to residual water from the first dive. That happened on a second dive in 38F fresh water. It was literally blowing ice chunks back at me. I am glad your set up is working 4 u. At this point, I'm going to take a different route, due to my SP "experience" and generally hearing much more complaining about SP's than I do Poseidons. I have a strong feeling that so many tech divers use Poseidons for a reason. Guess I will find out....
 
Dove the Jetstream/Odins on the Mary Alice B and Regina in lower Lake Huron this past weekend. Water temp around 41 or 42F. The odins worked like a charm. Now I know why other Great Lakes divers use them. I'm sold. Next test will be the deep end of Gilboa Quarry in Ohio.
 
you find all kinds of bizarre changes over time to deal with what is a design limitation of balanced piston regs - the balance chamber is open to the water, and the piston MUST SLIDE THROUGH AN O-RING, WITH AMBIENT WATER ON THE OTHER SIDE to seal against the seat.

What happens of course is that when gas expands it cools. So the knife-edge at the seat gets COLD. This is not normally a problem for the gas in the chamber, since its very dry (at least you damn well hope it is!)

HOWEVER, metal conducts heat. Well. So the shaft of the piston gets cold. Directly on the other side of the O-ring, it can be below the freezing point of water. The water on the other side is warmer than the metal, and the heat warms the piston shaft. That works well, so long as the water is of a reasonable temperature, as the thermal mass of the piston is rather small (the knife-edge to the midpoint of the shaft does not mass much.)

The problem is that in cold water the water flow through the reg can be insufficient and the small amount of water right at the O-ring can freeze, binding the piston shaft. If you're not moving in the water (thus lessening the flow through the reg) the problem is more acute, of course. Now the piston cannot move to seal against the seat, and you get ever-increasing pressure in the secondary side of the reg. The result is a freeflow as the poppet on the second stage is overwhelmed by the excessive IP, which of course causes more gas to flow, which makes the piston colder, which makes the problem worse. (!) The only "fix" is to turn off the offending first stage (assuming you have another one to breathe off of!) and allow it to warm up and the ice to melt. The problem is also somewhat worse in fresh water than salt (since salt water freezes at a somewhat lower temperature than fresh)

SP has done various things to try to stop this from happening, including putting nylon-like bushings around the shaft, and even going to a partially-composite piston shaft (less thermal conductivity and mass, and ice supposedly won't "stick" to it), rather than filling the balance chamber with "goop" (silicone grease) and using a trim ring with a VERY SMALL port (so the goop doesn't leak out all over the place in normal use; the mess problem, and trouble cleaning it completely during overhauls, is why BP manufacturers don't like the "fill with goop" method of attacking this problem.)

None of these countermeasures are completely effective. None CAN be completely effective, and claims to the contrary are marketing puff - its the nature of the beast you're fighting here.

First thing to do if you're not going to stuff the reg with silicone grease is lose the cute rubber ring around the balance ports (you'll have to take the reg at least halfway apart to get it off though, unless you don't mind destroying it while removing it) if yours has one (Mk10s typically do, I've seen several MK20s and 25s that do not - SP does learn, if slowly.) Besides restricting the flow of water in the chamber and partially insulating it (you WANT lots of flow and you want MAXIMUM heat conductivity!) it also traps potentially nasty (salt, etc) water under it and against the metal, which is not good either. Its a cosmetic thing only - take it off if its there. While you're at it if you have the other rubber thingy around the turret take that one off too - that one does nothing other than trap water where it doesn't belong.

Second thing is to quit trying to use a tool for purposes that are outside of its reasonable design parameters.

The simple truth is that there is no complete fix for this problem. The best bet is to simply not use these regs with ambient water temps under 40F or so, even with the trim ring removed, as while SP will probably continue to claim they've "fixed" this, the problem is one of an inherent design issue with ALL balanced piston regs, unless you fill the ambient chamber with silicone goop or something similar.

If you want to use these regs for extreme cold-water diving then fill the ambient chamber with goop (to exclude water but provide the incomrpessible fluid for the water to act on for the balance function) and use a trim ring with very small (all you need in that case) holes and deal with the potential mess issues. That is the only true "fix" for this problem.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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