Southern Belize Needs Your Help!

[flots am]

I
When he said they don't give a shiot about the country they are visiting, he didn't mean internal troubles. He meant that they would probably be happier at Epcot.

If Epcot had great diving, I'd be happy there too.

---------- Post added May 15th, 2014 at 02:09 PM ----------

It is like the Mafia. The reason no other operators were interested is because there are none in Belize City that I know of that are not doing trips for the cruise lines. I am sure their contract with the cruise line has a non-compete.

So they agree to only take cruise ship passengers from the ship for a fraction of the ticket price, then complain that they don't get a big enough cut?

Belize doesn't need more/better/different tourists, it needs Small Business Education.

 

[lostcajun]

It is like the Mafia. The reason no other operators were interested is because there are none in Belize City that I know of that are not doing trips for the cruise lines. I am sure their contract with the cruise line has a non-compete. Belize City is not where people go to go diving so there is no competition. The rates I quoted were from the Sea Sports Belize website. They are also the ones that cater to the cruisers.

When he said they don't give a shiot about the country they are visiting, he didn't mean internal troubles. He meant that they would probably be happier at Epcot.

I guess no one got the Morris reference.

I travel to Belize four to five times a year now. I always schedule two to three days to get in some dives. And I always go with Sea Sports Belize because most of my work is on the mainland. John and Linda and their team are GREAT, honest and reliable.

As far as the cruise lines, they do what they do to make money. The customer service is so people will return. The locations they visit, aren't for the country, it's to make the package more attractive. That's just business. I go with Sea Sports Belize, because everything I spend with them goes directly to local people. Belize is not just a destination for me. I love the people many of which are becoming like family. I wish more and more people would understand the value of the countries and people they visit while on cruises, but that's not the reason they cruise. They cruise to get a break and to experience what they think is some adventure. I go to Belize to join with locals to improve the conditions and situations people experience.

 

[AWMIII]

That's how it works. Most operators in Alaska (that where I know people who have dealt with this) have little idea what is being charged to their customers on the ship. They only know what is being passed along to them. The negotiations go like this: "This is what we are going to pay you. If you don't like it we will use your competitor. When we run our of competitors, we will buy or start an operator ourselves and put you out of business. It is very predatory. Operators will continue to fall for it because of fear or greed.


People seem to be missing the fact that this negotiation will not done as it would be in the US. There is no FTC making sure that business dealings are fair. Everyone will be bribed if needed. Officials at all levels will be bribed. Who loses out? The little guys. Belize is full of little guys. Do you realize there are no McDonalds in Belize? No Red Lobster, Olive Garden, or Chilis. There is no Walmart. There are only 2 or 3 international brand hotels. The legal system is a joke both civil and criminal. But do not think that these are bad things. Life in Belize is simpler and that's okay. Bringing in more cruisers will only serve to line the pockets of a few wealthy people. Most of the money will flow back to the cruise lines and out of Belize. What stays will flow to the semi-oligarchs and politicians who run the country. The huge backlash amongst the common people should prove this to you.

Epcot DOES have diving albeit in an aquarium.

 

[Mike]

People seem to be missing the fact that this negotiation will not done as it would be in the US. There is no FTC making sure that business dealings are fair. Everyone will be bribed if needed. Officials at all levels will be bribed. Who loses out? The little guys. Belize is full of little guys. Do you realize there are no McDonalds in Belize? No Red Lobster, Olive Garden, or Chilis. There is no Walmart. There are only 2 or 3 international brand hotels. The legal system is a joke both civil and criminal. But do not think that these are bad things. Life in Belize is simpler and that's okay. Bringing in more cruisers will only serve to line the pockets of a few wealthy people. Most of the money will flow back to the cruise lines and out of Belize. What stays will flow to the semi-oligarchs and politicians who run the country. The huge backlash amongst the common people should prove this to you..

Probably all very true, except that there will be 'little people' who will benefit, it's impossible not to have that benefit, there will be employment, jobs, new opportunities and their will be changes both good and bad, but as you said about all the corruption and crap that will come with it, that's Belize's problems to create all that or not. The cruise ships coming aren't going to create those internal issues of the government they are already there and they are already effecting the lives of the common Belize citizen today and yesterday and will continue to tomorrow.

---------- Post added May 15th, 2014 at 12:12 PM ----------

True, but I'm beginning to think that as a whole they don't give a sh*t about the countries they're visiting.

Kind of depends on what your definition of that is. Most cruise lines are not filled with eco tourists. There are cruise lines that cater to all demographics and on cruise lines there are all demographics on board, it's a cross section of the population and some care more and come care less than others. However if you're catering to Carnival cruises you're going to get a different tourist than a Norwegian or another brand as they appeal to different types of people at different age groups and socio-economic standings.

But no doubt if you've got Carnival hawking 7 day cruises to Belize for $500 a person, you aren't going to be bringing people on board interested in getting to know the locals or caring about the ecology as much as they are on a vacation to drink and eat and party as much as they can for their $70 a day they are paying for full room and board.

 

[dlofting]

Belize is not just a destination for me. I love the people many of which are becoming like family. I wish more and more people would understand the value of the countries and people they visit while on cruises, but that's not the reason they cruise. They cruise to get a break and to experience what they think is some adventure. I go to Belize to join with locals to improve the conditions and situations people experience.

This is how I look at things when I travel to someone else's country......I do want to get to know the people/culture and do what I can to improve conditions.

These people are on vacation. They want to relax and have fun and really don't really care about the country's internal problems, and they shouldn't have to.

Even when I fly places and stay for a week or two, I still really don't care all that much. Bonaire's petty crime problem isn't my problem. It wasn't my problem when I was there for 12 hours on a cruise ship, and it still wasn't my problem when I stayed at Buddy dive for a few weeks. I don't live there. It ever becomes an issue for them, they'll address it.

Same thing goes for Belize. When (if) you're trying to build a tourist destination, you're trading money for entertainment, not social justice or "caring"

This is another way of looking at things......and illustrates why Flots and I will never agree on Southern Belize as a large cruise ship destination.

 

[Downing]

This is another way of looking at things......and illustrates why Flots and I will never agree on Southern Belize as a large cruise ship destination.

Yeah, I've come to the same conclusion. I guess at this point we're talking past each other, not at each other.

Flots, you really should check out the Baboon Sanctuary, though. Won't cost you a dime but they appreciate tips and/or donations. Just don't stand directly beneath a Howler Monkey unless you want to take a golden shower, lol. Who knows, you might even meet a Belizean and make a friend.

 

[chillyinCanada]

On top of that, you two know Belize and the people. You care about others. Flots cares about his cruising.

 

[Hank49]

Cruise ships or no cruise ships….this is a minor issue in the scope of problems in Belize. The first thing we need to do is change this protectionist economy and open up to foreign investment. This is a failed model.
But it's almost like there is a conspiracy here to keep the people in the dark. My stepdaughter comes home from U of Belize and tells me that it's BAD to have foreign investment because the foreigners will take their money out of the country.

Yes it would be nice to preserve this …last frontier if you will. But the population is growing and the economy is not.

Fuel and power here are double what you pay in the US. Cars, anything that is imported, which is just about EVERYTHING but oranges, shrimp and bananas…is taxed. Most can't afford a car. We bring our workers to the farm on buses. Thailand hatchery workers drive Toyota Hiluxes.

Curruption? I remember back in 2002 or so when I was having a boat made in Belize City. The builder was also building about 3 other 40ish foot boats for private owners to transport tourists to and from the cruise ships. Lo and behold….some minister makes a law that only 45 foot and larger boats can do that, which he just happened to a fleet of. Sorry…..you just wasted your money on your new 38 footer.

It's the same in the Philippines, which used to be protectionist. A lot like here…but with way more people. The level of corruption is beyond what most Americans can comprehend. Customs, which collects much of the revenues for the government since that's where all the taxes are collected on everything imported, is extremely corrupt. So the government loses on two sides. No economic growth and to the pockets of customs people. …..anyway…cruise ships? That's the least of our problems.

 

[Ralph Capeling]

The cruise company gets a big chunk of the price the divers pay - the return to the dive operator is marginal and as the dive operator has to be ready for the number of divers the cruise ships forecasts, the dive operator has to have the boats and crew for that many people but if fewer show up, the dive operator is still stuck with those costs. You are right about the dive operator not negotiating the right terms. All the tour operator service providers get squeezed and the common view here is that the cruise ships have the strong negotiating position and you have to take it or leave it.
Other dive operators do not deal with the cruise ships and some divers book with them directly but things take a little longer as the customers have to be ferried to the city and then get on the dive boats. We get inquires for diving from cruise ship passengers and we just pass those onto a dive operator in Belize City. Flots Am, you could consider doing that next time you are in Belize.


AMWIII explains it well below. The dive operator in Belize City that we refer people to does respond to emails - your response to AMWIII is both wrong and disrespectful.

Oddly enough, the passengers will spend money on things they like. There is no guarantee that they'll buy trinkets made in China just because they're for sale in Belize.

I've been on cruises to Belize maybe a dozen times and never set foot on land, except once, for the crappy "tourist village" or whatever the port-thing is called. The ship stops in the harbor, the dive boat comes by and pick up divers and we go diving.

I can't tell you who gets money from that, but I can tell you it's about $200/diver not including tips. If "the right people" aren't getting paid, it's because they haven't negotiated the right contract terms.

Maybe some of you would be happier if I visited the baboon sanctuary instead, but I'm pretty sure it's not $200/person.

 

[flots am]

On top of that, you two know Belize and the people. You care about others. Flots cares about his cruising.

I have nothing against the residents of any country; however there are enough social issues at home that I don't really have any interest in taking on anybody else's over my vacation.

Also I have absolutely no guilt over cruising. I get a nice balcony overlooking the ocean, a comfy bed, entertainment for the non-diving spouses and no worries about anything,

Don't like it? Don't go. It's your choice.

Don't want cruise ships? Vote your elected crooks out of office.

flots.

---------- Post added May 15th, 2014 at 09:41 PM ----------

TAMWIII explains it well below. The dive operator in Belize City that we refer people to does respond to emails - your response to AMWIII is both wrong and disrespectful.

My quote:

"So they agree to only take cruise ship passengers from the ship for a fraction of the ticket price, then complain that they don't get a big enough cut?

Belize doesn't need more/better/different tourists, it needs Small Business Education."

may not be slathered in buttercream, but it's the truth.

Anybody who understands business and has the drive to make it work, can be sucessful. Few things annoy me more than people who whine about conditions and the business climate but refuse to change to work within the new parameters.