Some thoughts on restructuring SCUBA training ...

[Cave Diver]

So you are building the pyramid 10 PADI students pay for your 1 Tech class interesting concept

 

[boulderjohn]

Do any of you feel that this is part of the reason for some of the rushed training? People who try to use this as a primary source of income push people through classes to try and maximize earnings vs. instructors who do it on the side aren't under the same economic pressures to make ends meet?

I believe rushed training is primarily a product of the situation in resorts. If people are going to learn to dive while on vacation (which is what I did), they are not going to want to spend the whole vacation in a classroom or pool doing skills. To make the classes attractive to people like that, the course time has to be cut down to the minimum possible. As I said, mine was cut down to the point that it contained significant standards violations.

In our area, most of the instruction is done through shops. Independent contractors (like me) join shop employees on the teaching schedule. The shop is a profit making venture and serves as many students as it can, but that still leaves plenty of time on the schedule to get work done to standards. (In case you are wondering how many people dive in Colorado, the last I heard we had the most divers per capita of any state. The Denver metro area has many full time dive shops competing for the customer dollar.)

 

[Scott]

Do any of you feel that this is part of the reason for some of the rushed training? People who try to use this as a primary source of income push people through classes to try and maximize earnings vs. instructors who do it on the side aren't under the same economic pressures to make ends meet?

I think it's just who some people are regardless if it's primary or a secondary income.

 

[InTheDrink]

I believe rushed training is primarily a product of the situation in resorts. If people are going to learn to dive while on vacation (which is what I did), they are not going to want to spend the whole vacation in a classroom or pool doing skills. To make the classes attractive to people like that, the course time has to be cut down to the minimum possible. As I said, mine was cut down to the point that it contained significant standards violations.

In our area, most of the instruction is done through shops. Independent contractors (like me) join shop employees on the teaching schedule. The shop is a profit making venture and serves as many students as it can, but that still leaves plenty of time on the schedule to get work done to standards. (In case you are wondering how many people dive in Colorado, the last I heard we had the most divers per capita of any state. The Denver metro area has many full time dive shops competing for the customer dollar.)

To chime in a little.

I was chatting to my LDS part-owner last week. He has various other commercial interests so the LDS just just one, and one he is constantly throwing money at to prop up.

After doing his latest figures he simply cannot see any situation where you would consider it a viable business. The VAT on courses, training, course material and membership of the club nullify any potential profits.

So I don't think it's strictly a resort related problem. I think that it's so hard to make a living for so many LDSs that cutting corners is the inevitable first step before extinction.

I completely agree that niche, custom and quality instruction to savy consumers is a great way to go, but in areas where the interest just isn't that high, it's not hard to see why this operations won't or don't last.

Another view of course is that this is a PADI shop and that PADI is better suited to resort diving. BSAC has the solid and ongoing membership around here so perhaps they're better positioned to be a success although apart from membership I don't really see where their revenue comes from.

Anyhow, my point being - I don't think poor or rushed instruction is the preserve of resorts. I know that my LDS want to ensure people come back and try to structure their courses so that people really learn and come back. However, the reality is different and the courses are rushed.

J

 

[AndyNZ]

What in the standards prevents a 2 day class in the PADI system?

Nothing.

I know a shop not too far away from where I live that does a "2 day class". The book stuff is done prior to the class on their own, and the quizzes and exam are just done in the evenings and/or between dives.

The class is split so it's CW in the morning of each day, then OW in the afternoon of each day.

There is no violation of standards here at all.

The only comment I will make is that once when the lead instructor was asked "how the hell do you cope when you get held up in your (very tight) schedule because a student has mask clearing issues".

The reply was "In all of my years as an instructor, I have never had a student have difficulty in clearing a mask".

In my relatively few years as an instructor, I would guess that I got maybe one student in four who has some degree of difficulty that takes some time to overcome.

My only conclusion is that the instructor is obviously looking at himself in the mirror and taking pride in his status and appearance when the students are actually performing the skills, so the skills aren't being evaluated as such.....



EDIT: Saying that, I 100% agree with John. This is not a "two day course" as such. It is a course that has two days of contact and a period of pre-learning on the student's own time. I don't think it would be possible to teach a PADI OW course from scratch in two days, it is also impossible to teach a course seriously with two days of contact.

 

[elmer fudd]

One thing to consider here is how seriously the students take the bookwork. Speaking from experience, I can blast through bookwork with little comprehension when I choose to. I rarely do that with scuba courses though, since developing my skills as a diver is something that I take seriously. Still, I seem to remember that there were a few foolish questions in some of the PADI curriculum.

As part of my job, I end up having to take some really ridiculous online courses two or three times a year, (they have names like, "Understanding and Implementing the ------- Credo", or "Diversity in the Workplace"). They usually recommend something like an hour or more for each course, but myself and my fellow employees generally manage to get them done in 15 minutes or less. The same thing can be done with most bookwork that's not of a technical nature.

 

[glbtrekker]

I know that the general consensus seems to be that the market will not support longer, more in depth courses, but as someone who recently researched every LDS in my area before signing up for an OW class, I will speak as the exception to the rule. I searched hard and long for the longest and most difficult OW class that I could find within reasonable driving range of my house. All the other shops in my area only offered the Fri. night, Sat. and Sun. afternoon options. The class that I am taking meets twice a week for one month.

While I know that the three keys to quality training are instructor, instructor, instructor, I also realize the limitations of time placed upon any instructor. In short, it is seemingly impossible for an instructor to compress several weeks of instruction into a few days and expect there to be good retention of the material.

As a professional speaker, I realize that most people will lose 85% of what the average speaker mentions by the time they have walked to their car and that's even using every available modern technology. Repetition is the difference between whether information becomes a part of our short-term memory (to pass an exam) and actually learning the material.

Additionally, I'm also a firm believer in learning as much as I can about any activity in which I am involved, especially if it is an activity with inherent risks. I'm involved in a number of other activities with similar risks such as rappelling and riding sportsbikes. As such I realize that it only takes one wrong knot or a wrong application of braking to end in disaster. Wisdom would dictate that anyone involved in such activities have sufficient preparation and not be rushed through the material.

For example when I learned to rappel, we spent weeks in the classroom before we were ever even allowed close to the rappel tower and then the instructor hooked up our equipment for a few weeks before we were allowed to do it for ourselves and even then it was under direct supervision every time. As a result, till this day I know the difference between a correct hookup and a fatal one and no one has to remind me.

Does this guarantee safety? Of course not, but it does help to mitigate disaster.

Personally, I disagree with certain agencies that only require that a skill be demonstrated a couple of times and then give the student a passing grade. It is my opinion that the student should not be passed until the instructor is well convinced that the student is comfortable in performing the skill and can do it without having to stop and think about it. Does that mean that the skill has been mastered? Or course not, but it should mean that the student is proficient in that skill.

Extending the length of the classes give good instructors the time they need to ensure that students are proficient in the skills necessary for good diving practice. Yes, ice diving or cave diving classes are specialties I agree, but rescue, first aid, boat diving, etc. should be SOP IMHO.

 

[DCBC]

The "OW course" is not something that can really be defined specifically. Each certification agency has their own standards. Some have what they call "minimum standards," where they encourage the instructor to add to the program. Because of this, my course is unique from another instructor's. Not better, simply different.

If you want a short certification program, there are certification agencies and instructors who specialize in these. Most people take these types of courses, but I would be surprised if the majority of these students knew that they may have a choice. Granted sometimes there is no choice, but not every consumer is an educated one that has researched all that is available.

For those that care enough to become knowledgeable, they quickly see that there can be a great difference in what constitutes OW diver training. My course is 50 hours long, some are 20. Regardless of the agency affiliation or instructor competence, I suggest that any instructor can provide a more comprehensive training program if they have more time to do so.

Don't believe that a comprehensive course will necessarily cost you a fortune. Not all instructors want to get paid $10-15 per hour. I and many others like me teach for free! There are Clubs who give comprehensive training for less money. You don't necessarily have to go to a dive shop.

The length of the training course is largely dependent upon where you are geographically, how many instructors are available and your training goals. Without question the most convenient training method is to walk into the closest dive shop and sign-up for the next course, but this may or may not be your only option. It's your choice.

 

[Kingpatzer]

just google "scuba certification in two days"
here are a few... there are hundreds listed.
FAQs ~ Learn to Scuba Dive in Two (2) Days, Tampa (Fl) Florida
PADI Scuba Diving Lessons and Scuba Courses in Belize
Avadon Divers - Placencia, Belize - Diver Training & Certification
SCUBA Diving Lessons
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The Belize link did not offer an OW certification in 2 days. Hence I didn't bother to check the others since you clearly didn't examine them yourself.

 

[*dave*]

Do any of you feel that this is part of the reason for some of the rushed training? People who try to use this as a primary source of income push people through classes to try and maximize earnings vs. instructors who do it on the side aren't under the same economic pressures to make ends meet?

This one's sense of the obvious is very keen.

There are at least two very different markets. The market I serve consists of people who live where I do. They know where to find me. I have a sincere desire to see them succeed as divers and will go to great lengths to assure they do. The divers I train are a projection of my skills as an instructor and this is something I care about.

Like Jim, what I make instructing goes back into training. travel or gear. There is no profit made and my income comes from outside diving. I might certify 50 people in a years time.


Then, there are those who certify 50 people in a months time and rely on certs for income. There isn't that great a difference in course costs, so they have to work in volume. The high volume demands a reduction in quality, which is fine, because their main goal is to move the people through the course without incident. It's a job.

Here's a clip shot by the videographer as the group I joined ended the dive.

The DM in the clip is donating to an OOA diver, while trying to hold the other two, who are also very low on air, at stop depth. The DM seemed to be pretty happy with the way the dive went.

Cheap, fast or quality; you can have any two, but you can't have all three.