Some thoughts on restructuring SCUBA training ...

[boulderjohn]

Is it? It was at one time, but I've been told standards have changed to allow it. Are my sources wrong?

Any thoughts on my question, John?

Is the question above the one you meant?

There are time limits to what can be done in one day, such as the fact that you can't do three training dives in a day. There is no limit on the total time in the course. (More on this later.)

First of all, I think that if there is going to be a meaningful discussion on how long instruction takes, we all need to be operating with the same definition to begin with. When someone says people earning OW certifications in 2 days, to me that means they are walking in fresh off the street at the start of day 1 and finishing a day later.

If people have differing definitions, they should make that clear.

In the very old days, students got all their academic instruction from the instructor, and that clearly counted as time on task. Then people realized it was more efficient to have the student study at home at his or her own pace. So if the student is learning at home instead of listening to the instructor, what's the difference. It's still instructional time. Why would that not be considered part of the instructional time?

As I said (and you did not mention), after the student has done the work at home, the instructor is required to go over the knowledge review, give quizzes, and administer a final exam. It takes quite some time to take a class through all 5 knowledge reviews in the PADI system. Why does that not count as part of the instructional time? In one of the advertisements noted above, it appears as if this is not being done--which would be a standards violation.

Back to the question....

I know how long it takes me to take a class through the required academic portions following home study. I know how long it takes to take a class of students through all 20 required skills in the confined water portion of the class. I know how long the OW dives take (at minimum), especially the restrictions on when you can take them. Put that all together, and there is no way it can be done in 2 days and meet all the standards, even if you don't count the time in home study.

As I said earlier (and many times in similar threads in the past), I am the product of a 3-day resort course. That course included a 2 hour CW session in a pool less than 5 feet deep. I had no idea at the time what the requirements were. When I later learned what I was supposed to have been taught, I realized how many standards were never even mentioned, let alone taught. I did no swimming test whatsoever, either swimming or tread. I obviously did not do any skills in water too deep to stand up in.

In my OW dives, we never did underwater compass work. We did not do a CESA. Only one buddy went OOA on that exercise, and there was no ascent. I could go on, but my memory of the other stuff is fuzzy. It was quite a while ago.

So, I know that the operator from whom I was initially certified was unable to complete the course crammed into three days and still meet standards. Thus, I really don't see how it can be done in two.

 

[Walter]

Is the question above the one you meant?

It is, thank you.

There are time limits to what can be done in one day, such as the fact that you can't do three training dives in a day.

It appears they are only doing two per day.

First of all, I think that if there is going to be a meaningful discussion on how long instruction takes, we all need to be operating with the same definition to begin with. When someone says people earning OW certifications in 2 days, to me that means they are walking in fresh off the street at the start of day 1 and finishing a day later.

I think I agree, but I would not include any study done outside of class. I've had students come to class without reading the text, but I don't like it.

In the very old days, students got all their academic instruction from the instructor, and that clearly counted as time on task. Then people realized it was more efficient to have the student study at home at his or her own pace. So if the student is learning at home instead of listening to the instructor, what's the difference. It's still instructional time. Why would that not be considered part of the instructional time?

When I was in college, a 4 credit class meant I was in class 4 hours per week. The time I spend reading the book or studying outside sources did not count as part of that 4 hours per week. I would look at this in the same way.

As I said (and you did not mention), after the student has done the work at home, the instructor is required to go over the knowledge review, give quizzes, and administer a final exam. It takes quite some time to take a class through all 5 knowledge reviews in the PADI system. Why does that not count as part of the instructional time?

I believe I did mention it. Any time in the classroom or pool is time counted.

I know how long it takes me to take a class through the required academic portions following home study. I know how long it takes to take a class of students through all 20 required skills in the confined water portion of the class. I know how long the OW dives take (at minimum), especially the restrictions on when you can take them. Put that all together, and there is no way it can be done in 2 days and meet all the standards, even if you don't count the time in home study.

When discussing total class time, folks who advocate shorter classes sometimes insist they make better use of the time and are able to get more done in much less time. Let's assume for the sake of discussion an instructor is super efficient. What in the standards prevents a 2 day class in the PADI system?

 

[boulderjohn]

When I was in college, a 4 credit class meant I was in class 4 hours per week. The time I spend reading the book or studying outside sources did not count as part of that 4 hours per week. I would look at this in the same way.

The analogy is not quite apt. Even when you were in college (as was I), there were independent study courses where students learned on their own without attending classes. They still got the course credit when they completed the work.

When discussing total class time, folks who advocate shorter classes sometimes insist they make better use of the time and are able to get more done in much less time. Let's assume for the sake of discussion an instructor is super efficient. What in the standards prevents a 2 day class in the PADI system?

There is no specific standard for that, no. I suspect that is because there is no real need for it. If you use my definition (start to finish), even the most super efficient could not do the entire thing in 2 days. If you don't count any time for academics, it could be done. That does not, however, meet my definition of instructional time.

 

[SeaHound]

Thanks for digging those up. They are offering two day OW certifications. Clearly, I was wrong.

What's the worst that could happen? There's already been links posted casting the listed shops as offering two day courses when they, in fact, don't. If there were a potential for trouble, that would be it.

Since you have already seen in those links that a 2-day scuba course is available by many places, that should not require further evidence. The debate now should be what do they mean by two day course? Does that mean just pool and ocean dives or are they teaching every possible skill needed to pass open water like how to walk on your two feet, how to wave your hand. how to read, how to swim etc. I mean what exactly is a 2 day certification?

Even by the most forgiving perception, this word means no less than all the pool work needed to master the skills plus 5 supervised ocean dives. Given this merciful interpretation of a "2 day certification", I still think the course is influenced too heavily by principles of free market economy. It is diving being turned into "fast-food" where the person who cooks knows its nasty, who serves it knows its nasty and the ones who eats it knows it nasty. Yet ... the show must go on ...

 

[Walter]

Even by the most forgiving perception, this word means no less than all the pool work needed to master the skills plus 5 supervised ocean dives.

Many agencies require 4 open water dives, not 5.

 

[Walter]

John, apparently some folks are doing it in two days without violating standards.

(Note to non-instructors - Nothing is wrong if the link doesn't work for you, you must have access to the Instructor to Instructor forum to follow the link)

 

[boulderjohn]

John, apparently some folks are doing it in two days without violating standards.

(Note to non-instructors - Nothing is wrong if the link doesn't work for you, you must have access to the Instructor to Instructor forum to follow the link)

So, we'll accept the definition you folks are using. In that case, these programs can proudly proclaim that it takes more time to learn scuba from them than it takes to get a 4 year B.A. from a well-respected university.* How's that for rigor?


*A number of well respected universities offer degrees, from Bachelors through Ph.D, to students completely online. These students need not enter the state, let alone the classroom. Since work done at home doesn't count in instructional time, then they are getting 4 year degrees without putting in a single minute of work.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Jim, is this something you're able to make a living at, or is it something you do on the side after your bills are paid?

Heck No! And I don't want to. In my area there are no instructors that make a living only teaching. They have other jobs, own a shop, etc. There is just not enough business for an instructor to make a living solely by teaching. I work as a quality inspector and waterjet operator to pay the bills. Teaching pays for my diving, insurance, dues, and additional training I want to get.

 

[Cave Diver]

Heck No! And I don't want to. In my area there are no instructors that make a living only teaching. They have other jobs, own a shop, etc. There is just not enough business for an instructor to make a living solely by teaching. I work as a quality inspector and waterjet operator to pay the bills. Teaching pays for my diving, insurance, dues, and additional training I want to get.

Do any of you feel that this is part of the reason for some of the rushed training? People who try to use this as a primary source of income push people through classes to try and maximize earnings vs. instructors who do it on the side aren't under the same economic pressures to make ends meet?

 

[elan]

Teaching pays for my diving, insurance, dues, and additional training I want to get.

So you are building the pyramid 10 PADI students pay for your 1 Tech class interesting concept