Some Comments after Nitrox Certification

[Louma]

Mike - I conceed to your points as well thought out. But, I still think that the majority of people that take Nitrox only take it because it's "the in thing" or it's pushed real hard at the LDS. And I stand by the statement that most are diving Nitrox on air (heck, most drop out of SCUBA after O/W and their first vacation). I think it would make a good poll question - what do you think?

I still think that further training is needed - either through a certification course, or talking to other divers (who know what they are talking about), using this board and the internet in general - to tie the whole "technical" thing together because -- remember the original premise - we are teaching to the "average" student. Add to that, we only have a certain amount of time (not that I'm restricted by time but, would you want an O/W class that was 2x a week for a year). Also, we all know that, it's the diving and not the course work that make us truly a compentent, safe diver.

 

[neil]

Also, NITROX is the only class (at least through NAUI) that requires NO SCUBA certification what-so-ever.

I believe you have mis-read the S&P. See the chart on p. 2.48. There is no prerequisite for EANx diver "when included in a scuba course". Also on p. 2.56 there is a description of the two types of courses: "The course may be taught as a stand -alone specialty course to certified divers or the knowledge and skills training may be integrated into other NAUI certification course including the NAUI Scuba Diver Course."

 

[Louma]

Neil - I see your point. The problem with a lot of the S&P is it is open to a lot of interpitation. In this case I see the chart and there is no question in my mind that you need O/W or Nitrox could be taught along with O/W. But, if you look at p 2.56 we have that nasty word may. I've seen this course taught prior to the O/W because O/W class was a few weeks away ( now, maybe the way that the LDS got away with this is the students were signed up to the O/W course) I don't know. I do know that I would not teach anyone Nitrox that wasn't a certified diver first or I would incorporate this into their O/W class.

 

[fire_diver]

Mike - I conceed to your points as well thought out. But, I still think that the majority of people that take Nitrox only take it because it's "the in thing" or it's pushed real hard at the LDS.

I only took nitrox because I had to. Instructor won't (or can't) teach advanced nitrox without basic nitrox. Why? Advanced covers the same material plus more. It goes back to the whole agency mind-set I think. They want us to spend as much money as possible on as many classes as possible. Why should I have to spend $250 for AOW just so I can take rescue? If anything, thats backwards. Rescue should be a pre-requisite for all other follow-on courses. Fortunately there's still ONE agency that lets you rescue when you want to.


FD

Edit- PS: I actually prefer to do the calcs by hand. All this rounding here, then round there, then round that other thing smacks laziness. It also doesn't show me my true values and times for a particular mix/depth.

 

[DivesWithTurtles]

In-depth knowledge is available to any student that wants it, both through self-generated education (on the web and in books), and through formal education with advanced courses (Adv. Nitrox, trimix, deco, a wide variety of tech courses, etc.). This in-depth knowledge is not necessary for for new student divers that just want to look at the fishies safely.

You want the in-depth understanding, go out and get it. It's readily available. You want to go look at the fishies safely, that's also readily available, at a very reasonable investment of time and money. It's all good for everyone.

I contend that in-depth knowledge will not make you a better diver. It will only make you a better educated diver. Time in the water, preferably with a good instructor or mentor, working on skills, will make you a better diver.

Anyone here want to suggest that studying sports kinesiology will lower your golf handicap?

Dumb it down! Make it as simple as possible. Just get them to stop kicking the reef!

 

[MikeFerrara]

In-depth knowledge is available to any student that wants it, both through self-generated education (on the web and in books), and through formal education with advanced courses (Adv. Nitrox, trimix, deco, a wide variety of tech courses, etc.). This in-depth knowledge is not necessary for for new student divers that just want to look at the fishies safely.

And then there are the divers who want to know but don't necessarily want to go into technical diving. I agree, all this is in books and on the net and easy to find and understand for most people. so, why require a special certification for it at all? Who needs tp pay the agency for it?

You want the in-depth understanding, go out and get it. It's readily available. You want to go look at the fishies safely, that's also readily available, at a very reasonable investment of time and money. It's all good for everyone.

Not every diver just wants a cheap ticket to see the fishies. For instance the one who started this thread. That begs the question, reasonable invenstment, ok, but is there a reasonable return on that investment? What are we doing for these students that they can't do for themselves other than granting them permission?

I contend that in-depth knowledge will not make you a better diver. It will only make you a better educated diver. Time in the water, preferably with a good instructor or mentor, working on skills, will make you a better diver.[/QUOTE]

Sure but are there many nitrox classes any more that require dives? We cut out the diving, then we cut out the theory and we should get our fee...why?

Dumb it down! Make it as simple as possible. Just get them to stop kicking the reef!

And jus what about dive training make you think that divers are going to be doing anything other than kicking the reef more?

 

[TxHockeyGuy]

I understand where the original poster is coming from. When I took my nitrox class we actually touched on some tri-mix simply because I had questions regarding it. I too wanted more information than what was given in the course but really didn't expect it and I think anyone going in with such expectations is expecting too much. In my mind the nitrox course regardless of it being PADI, NAUI, SSI, or some other ABC agency is to allow a recreational diver to safely dive on nitrox, nothing more. In my opinion this is exactly what the basic nitrox class should be. This is what most people taking this class want and if you tried to also teach all the additional information you would simply overwhelm many of the people taking the class and they would forget the information that is important to diving nitrox safely. Honestly if I was given a mix other than 32 or 36 I would have to get my book out and look up the formula to come up with EAD. In reality I'd just set my computer to the appropriate setting and go to the dive planner screen and then compare my mix to the cloest tables I had and see if the numbers were roughly where I expected them to be (my double check of the computer). This would give me my maximum no deco time and I do remember the formula to figure out my MOD so I could easily figure that out for 1.4 or 1.6 at any EANx. Beyond that, to dive it recreationally the only thing I need to keep in mind is my oxygen clock which my computer will track. If for some reason it fails, I can pull out my book and do all the math. And yes, I typically have my nitrox book with me when I dive regardless if I am diving nitrox or not.

 

[Packhorse]

Im starting a nitrox course in the next few weeks, so Im trying to lean as much as I can before. Although I would rather just do an advance nitrox couse but have to do a standard course first. Seems a bit pointless having to learn it all twice. But any way I have a few questions
What does EAD stand for? equivilant air depth??
Is this formula ((D + 33) FN2/0.79)-33 = EAD used for caculating NDL on air tables while diving Nitrox?
Is the metric version ((D+10)xFN/0.79)-10= EAD ?
So if I dive to 30m on 32% EAN and I didnt have nitrox tables I could use air tables for 24.4 meters? And my PPO of 02 would be 1.28? and PPO for N would be 2.72?

 

[The Chairman]

Theory VS Practical Application.

Which is more important? How much theory is essential for the safe execution of a NitrOx dive? Do we need to understand gas kinetics, or maybe decompression theory and physiology? How much do we need to understand? How much CAN we understand?

More importantly, do we feel that EVERYONE should be taught our way or no way at all? Do we have the right to impose our standards of diving on everyone else?

Think about it. There are many who want an easy course and there are those who abhor it. To each his own.

 

[Kstnbike]

One point I have to bring up here is the fact that the PADI manuals are written at basically the 4rd grade level (for OW and AOW) and the 6th-7th Grade level for Nitrox and other specialties. Most people getting certified haven't used school knowledge for a long time and don't have the time to take a course that is labor intensive. Basic Nitrox teaches exactly what it states, the basics, just like basic OW. It teaches you not to descend past certain depths on certain %'s of Nitrox, how to calculate what pp02's not to pass using tables and equations, and how to determine o2 toxicity levels. Hell, a Nitrox class could be completed in a day someone really wanted to. Padi, Naui, SSI are all companies that are out there to make a profit. If they wanted to treat Basic OW or specialty classes like college level or even high school level courses they would have been run out of business a long time ago. Those of us that go the extra mile and get our rescue diver, DM, IDC, Advanced nitrox, Tri-Mix, etc. have a genuine interest in the sport and don't want to just have the "easy bump" into the underwater world from basic certifications. I haven't taken any Tec Classes, but I have a feeling that they are very labor intensive and require you learn the material and theory behind it. Tec Divers have a thirst for extending their knowledge in the sport or need to dive commercially so this acts like dive training for them. In this sport, like many others, people don't care about theory and reasoning behind everything, they just want to dive and get in the water.

-Kstnbike
_____________________
OW, AOW, Rescue, Nitrox