Solo dive on the U853 WWII German Submarine

[doctormike]

My personal opinion is that war graves should be free from penetration, one should experience them with ones eyes. There are plenty of other shipwrecks to penetrate.

I don't know. Assuming that your penetration is sufficiently skilled that you don't damage the wreck by diving on it (it had better be), actually being inside a "real" wreck can be one of the most sublime and moving experiences in diving. To see where they worked, ate, slept. I don't feel the same way about the San Diego as I do about an artificial reef.

Consider this, we may be the last generation to have historically significant shipwrecks to dive. No marine wreck lasts forever, and those of us who dive them can see the changes just over our few years of experience with the passage of winters and storms. With rare exceptions, shipwrecks don't happen any more. Collisions are thankfully becoming very uncommon, and clashes between huge navies with thousands of ships in combat doesn't seem to be the way that warfare is going.

Maybe you are making the distinction of a war grave, and those wrecks do get special protection by law. Being civilians, the 46 people who died on the Andrea Doria have to suffer their grave being a major draw for penetration over the years.

 

[descent]

We may have different ideas about what constitutes a grave. For example, I don't consider a crash site a grave.

I used to spend a lot of time traveling from one place to another in low, terrain-following flight. If the worst happened, and some hiker chanced on our crash site thirty years later to find my femur up in the crotch of a tree, would I want him to move the various leftovers toward some central place?

Yes, I think I would.

No one wants to be left for the crows, but sometimes it can't be helped. I used to hope that if it came to that, some kind soul would eventually step in as a caretaker before our remains became unrecognizable as human.

For me, a crash is just a negation of everything I think is worthwhile in life. Pointless destruction.

A grave, on the other hand, is where the survivors arrange your remains for eternity, and perhaps say a final goodbye.

 

[oldschoolto]

You guys are really nuts about this... They are "Bones" just bones.... Moving them in to a more protected spot is not a big deal... Surely done with nothing but respect for the sailor...
Jim....

 

[CT-Rich]

Last thought, the bones were located near the access points of the sub,then they had lain there for seventy years. Granted, in the 70-80s the etiquette wreck diving might have had was not clear (or obvious) in regards to human remains. But, I think, if after SEVENTY YEARS, you are the first to touch the bones. You are desecrating the grave. I still haven't heard any diver say that this is a regular practice on any wreck.

 

[Stoo]

Two options on this. 1) I stay where I fell with my crew mates. 2) My body be recovered and repatriated to my family or buried in a military cemetery. Having some tourist moving remains around for whatever reason isn't on the list.

This...

Here in the Great Lakes, removing even a spike from our old wrecks is a serious crime, and it can have serious legal consequences. Our wrecks don't deteriorate like those in salt water, and most of our favourites sunk in the 1800s and are still solid.

I understand that it's common to collect souvenirs from wrecks in salt water, but to be collecting human remains seems pretty twisted to me. I don't really think that the politics of the deceased has anything to do with it...

What the hell do you do with the femur of a German submariner anyway? Give it to the dog? Preserve it and display it over the fireplace?

 

[doctormike]

This...

Here in the Great Lakes, removing even a spike from our old wrecks is a serious crime, and it can have serious legal consequences. Our wrecks don't deteriorate like those in salt water, and most of our favourites sunk in the 1800s and are still solid.

Right... the argument made by our local northeast divers who do salvage is that these wrecks are going away, sometimes pretty quickly. By bringing up artifacts they let people - especially nondivers - see maritime history that would otherwise be lost forever. You may not agree with that, but that's one point of view.

 

[oldschoolto]

What about digging up neat looking mummies ? And what about all those early humans.. Don't they count ?

Jim...

 

[AfterDark]

Last thought, the bones were located near the access points of the sub,then they had lain there for seventy years. Granted, in the 70-80s the etiquette wreck diving might have had was not clear (or obvious) in regards to human remains. But, I think, if after SEVENTY YEARS, you are the first to touch the bones. You are desecrating the grave. I still haven't heard any diver say that this is a regular practice on any wreck.

Maybe not Rich, that sub took a pounding this past winter. Nature may have dislodged some bones from places especially overheads where they have been stuck for decades. The crews bodies all floated for a time some remains may have gotten stuck overhead.

Personally I'd like my remains to be consolidated with those of my shipmates no matter how long it took or who did it.

 

[FiddlerOnTheRoof]

Stoo... No bones were removed from the wreck!!! At least NOT BY ME or anyone on my dives.
All bones I have seen there ARE STILL THERE. But in the past there have been people who were not respectful. I don't even take video or photos of them as many do.

Unfortunately what is happening is that many of this human remains that before were protected are at times becoming exposed due to erosion of the more damaged sections of the U853.

 

[CT-Rich]

For the record, here is a report about another "well qualified protector of those needing protection":
Boy Scout Leaders Topple Ancient Rock Formation In Utah's Goblin Valley State Park (VIDEO)
I think the only person you really need to protect the German sailors from is yourself. If you move the remains to another part of the ship, you are A) breaking up the remains (unless you carefully collected all the bones and personal effects, (not sure I would like to be separated from my father's watch, wallet with my mother's picture)) or have my parts scattered about the wreck. B) Moving the remains only makes it appear that others have been stealing remains, thus inciting others to worry about desecration. If you see someone doing something like recovering remains, you need to call them on it. You can't protect the bodies of the sailors by desecrating them pre-emptively.