So, what is the point of AOW???

[diverdowndh]

It irks me when I hear people say they didn't get anything out of their AOW class ... to my concern, it can be one of the most useful classes out there. But what that tells me is that one of two things happened ... either the instructor didn't take it seriously enough, or the student didn't.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

As a DM candidate I completely agree - but really, AOW was a very cold trip to the Blue Hole. I personally did about 8 of the choices on the AOW ticket, not just the 3 we were supposed to choose. The navigation was the only thing that I thought interesting but was somewhat let down - we did the first part in the parking lot, and the underwater piece was so easy it almost got me upset. I was hoping to learn much more about underwater nagivation, not just how to use a compass to do 2 kicks@90 degreesX4 - you cannot do much more in the Blue Hole but again, I still paid for a class and I'm where I was before, needing to work on navigation. Trust me, I did the reading and the knowledge reviews so you can't say that I didn't put anything into AOW.
Now, as far as the instructor, my only choice would be to take the AOW class again with a different instructor, and with what I've already spent (and gained), I'm not really inclined to do that.

You are right though!

 

[MikeFerrara]

That's because they're taught to value the card, rather than the knowledge and skills that it implies.

The industry has evolved around those cards. The agencies havd a guarateed market. Everyone who wants access to diving through shops or resorts owned by agency members (most of them?) MUST have one of those cards to gain that access. People are willing to pay for the access even if they don't care anything about the training.

Since the diver gets the access he/she paid for, they simply don't require quality training. I think you see that right here in this thread (and many others) also."

Thinking back to when I started diving, I dives for several years prior to being certified. I thought taking a class to swim and breath was the silliest thing I had ever heard of. I eventually baught a card for more access.

I've said it before, if it were up to me we would all cut up every card we possess on the count of three. Without the cards, training would have to stand on it's own merit and it just wouldn't sell if the market didn't see value in it. All those people in this thread who baught an AOW card for access and admit that they didn't learn much would just skip that class. The agency wouldn't have a product until they did a little more work.

Someone complained that GUE cards expire. Who cares ... what you learn in the class doesn't.

I think that was me. As much as I admire about GUE, I completely disagree with the expiring card. All a card is(or should be), is a certificate of completion. I'm glad my college degree doesn't expire and I don't think it should. I think that GUE's policy on this only serves to reinforce this c-card nonsense with the diver always tied to the agency and dependant on having their permission. In this one regard, I think GUE is part of the problem.

Choosing a class because it's quick, easy and cheap is a form of masturbation ... it's fun while you're doing it, but in reality you're just screwing yourself.

I disagree only because what's really being marketed here is the access. Purchasing that access is exactly what is required. There isn't anything on the other side of the equal sign. A potential diver has no reason to shop for anything else and isn't likely to find it if they do.

Ultimately it's up to the student ... the agencies provide the services that their customers demand. Instructors can only affect how their own classes are presented ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I would agree that it's up to the student if there were visable options that they could compare. There aren't. go to a city like Chicago where there are a bunch of shops and check out a handful. See what the difference between one class and another is. Most of them are teaching the same class, regardless of agency but most are going to be PADI, and it makes very little difference which one you pick. Go to a busy dive site like a midwest quarry where you can watch many different classes in a single day and see how much difference there is between them. It's all the same stuff. As a practical matter, there are no options. There is a fairly small price spread and some scheduling options. The training is all the same.

We don't know if quality training at an appropriate price that was marketed as a completely different product would sell because it hasn't been tried. Well in a way it has. For a while there (maybe still) DIRF courses were going on all over the place around here. All these people are spending $300 plus their share of the instructors expenses for a two day work shop. I had trouble getting $300 for a PADI OW class that I had a full 40 hours into and I had to EAT my expenses, supply gear, rent a pool and buy student materials.

I miss teaching but if I ever go back to it PADI's name will NOT be on my class. The market will be able to compare the results of my classes against the results of PADI classes as apposed to PADI getting credit for MY work.

How can you compete with the shop down the street when the better you do, the better the agency looks and that other guy is selling the same product? You can't. Your back to forcing people to look at price and scheduling.

 

[Coll]

I wasn't trying to imply that what I mentioned are the only uses for an AOW class. I'm learning a lot through my class and have no regrets whatsoever about taking it. I wanted to note a couple of shall we say "bonuses" other than knowledge gained. As I said, I'll leave the debate of value of the class up to people that have already taken and passed it, but I for one, am a believer in AOW.

As an instructor, that's the kind of rationale I never want to impart to my students. If you want to meet new divers and make a bunch of new friends, join a club ... it's cheaper. The only reason to take a dive class should be because they have some skills or knowledge that you want to learn.

Dive instruction should ALWAYS have an intrinsic value ... if your instructor cannot challenge you to extend your basic skills and learn new things, then he or she is not doing their job ... and you're not getting your money's worth from the class.

What's the point of AOW? Well, to me ... OW teaches you how to not kill yourself while adapting to a new environment. It introduces you to some basic skills ... but doesn't really teach you how to use them properly. AOW is where you start learning how to use those skills to truly become a self-sufficient diver.

AOW isn't about getting a card, or being allowed to "go deep" ... it's about learning what it means to "plan your dive and dive your plan". It's about developing a mental approach to dive safety that takes not only yourself, but whoever you're diving with into account. It's about learning the difference between gas management and aborting your dive at 500 psi. It's about going beyond the compass and learning ... finally ... how to navigate underwater. It's about learning better ways to propel yourself underwater, developing better buoyancy control, and understanding the fit, form and function of your gear better.

Your AOW instructor shouldn't just be taking you out on night, navigation, and deep dives ... he or she should be teaching you why each of those dives are mandated separately, and giving you both the knowledge and confidence to be able to independently ... and safely ... PLAN that type of dive on your own.

It irks me when I hear people say they didn't get anything out of their AOW class ... to my concern, it can be one of the most useful classes out there. But what that tells me is that one of two things happened ... either the instructor didn't take it seriously enough, or the student didn't.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[daniel f aleman]

One may not get great OW or AOW instruction from the local shop in Omaha or Saskatoon, but blaming the the international dive agencies is a waste of time, and misdirected. Anyone can get great instruction, somewhere and from someone - OW through trimix - course curriculum is out there, as are the instructors.

 

[SparticleBrane]

One big thing I've noticed is that many divers (who, in reality, suck) think they're good. They've never seen a truly good diver in the water.
Instead, they've seen their instructor flounder around on the bottom, they've performed a few skills (maybe hacking and coughing their way through one mask clear) and they get a pat on the back and "Good job! Here's your card!" from the instructor.

 

[jd950]

Wow, this has kind of wandered into a whole bunch of areas. Again, neither I nor the instructor that I mentioned intended to say that the dives or subject matter was worthless or meaningless. That instructor just suggested that the extra cost involved in doing them as part of "AOW" was not needed, and did so knowing that we would be doing at least that many dives during that time period anyway. In other words, lets go on some dives, do navigation, work on buoyancy, etc., and learn something, but you won't get a plastic card afterwards. I have concluded the card is worth having.

This instructor has dived with me and we have mutual friends so he/she is aware that I have been well below 60' many times, have dived at night, and have pretty good buoyancy. My navigation skills are probably poor, because almost all diving I do is off of a boat with some form of "guide." Unfortunately, it is hard for me to do dives just for the purpose of working on "skills" when diving with any sort of group and paying for the dives. I try to get opportunities when I can to do "practice" dives, just to play with weighting, basic skills, practice photography, etc., but I don't get much opportunity.

I did not do AOW right after my OW because it seemed to me that it was better to wait and get a lot more experience first. Some may disagree, and maybe it makes no difference. I guess my feeling right now is that the so-called specialty dive certifications may be meaningful, but not really the AOW. After all, even PADI refers to them as "adventure" dives designed to "introduce" a diver to these skills or specialties.

"As you step beyond the PADI Open Water Diver level, you make five dives and have the opportunity to try some of diving’s most rewarding and useful specialty activities"

What I find funny, as with so many threads discussing certifications, is that one person says he would require proof of advanced certification before allowing me to do certain dives, only to have someone else explain why the certification is meaningless. Like I said before, I don't care if someone wants to look at my logs, watch me in the water or look at my card.

Of course, GUE fundamentals came up, but it won't get me on those dive boats and besides, my mask is the wrong color, I don't have a dive knife, my regulator hose is too short, my BC has some sort of bungee or elastic on it and most importantly, I don't use a crotch strap for diving, and don't intend to start, so GUE is out.

At least no one has yet said that if I get an AOW card I'm gonna die!!!!

I'll let you know how the course goes.

 

[MikeFerrara]

One may not get great OW or AOW instruction from the local shop in Omaha or Saskatoon, but blaming the the international dive agencies is a waste of time, and misdirected.

They wrote the standards, how can blaming them be misdirected? Who else can you blame for agency standards but the agency? Did the devil make em do it or what? LOL

 

[Tigerman]

They wrote the standards, how can blaming them be misdirected? Who else can you blame for agency standards but the agency? Did the devil make em do it or what? LOL

The standards are only "minimum requirements" it doesnt say in any of my books that "you may NOT receive more elaborate training than the requirements set forth in this curricilum"?

 

[MikeFerrara]

The standards are only "minimum requirements" it doesnt say in any of my books that "you may NOT receive more elaborate training than the requirements set forth in this curricilum"?

First of all, whether you think that the standards "minimums" are acceptable or not, it is the agencies who are responsible for them and that was the point of the post.

Also if you are a PADI instructor, you will note in your instructor materials that they do NOT intend for you to add skills.

Next, I don't know why it's so hard to understand. Since it's permited to only teach minimums, that's what often happens....when one takes a minimum OW, AOW, rescue DM and instructor training...all they know is the minimums and they can't teach anything else.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The standards are only "minimum requirements" it doesnt say in any of my books that "you may NOT receive more elaborate training than the requirements set forth in this curricilum"?

Lets look at just a few aspects of minimums.

In a PADI OW course, there is NO buoyancy control performance requirement that applies to any tour (the real diving part). Students can and do bounce and crawl their way through. Students are never required to demonstrate that they can dive. As you go through the standards of other courses, note, that this is pretty much the end of any required training or performance requirements related to actual dive technique. At this point you have demonstrated all the diving skills required to become an instructor. Well, ok, the DM and instructor is required to demonstrate kneeling skills to demonstration quality but they never have to demonstrate that they can actually dive either.

As they say, "the proof is in the eatng of the pudding" and all we need to do is get in the water and watch a little to see how the standards relate to how classes are run and how divers dive after the class. The minimums are everything. What you could do if you want doesn't matter. It's what must be done that matters.