Snorkeling death

[agilis]

There was one case of a 70 year old woman found floating, dead, with the mask. No one saw what happened. I mean, I understand the point that you are trying to make, but that one case simply doesn't make it. 3500 people in the US drown every year without snorkel masks, it's not such a rare event.

I asked you if you had any actual reports of deaths attributable to the mask and you said that you have no information about mortality data. That's fine, I understand why you think that it might be dangerous, and it's reasonable for you to make that case. And I'm happy to look at the other accidents that have been reported - as I said, I wasn't being snarky, I was actually interested. If you have reports of accidents, post them.

But I don't want to pretend that we have any actual evidence of lethality, just because we assume that it must be so.

I assumed nothing. Your first post contradicted your penultimate post which claimed no deaths while using these things. If you meant no deaths caused by the use of these things that is what you should have written.

Mention of the woman's age is an inappropriate way of suggesting possible causality, and one which I find personally offensive since I'm older than she was. That she was found without the mask certainly indicates that the mask may have been the problem.

 

[doctormike]

I assumed nothing. Your first post contradicted your penultimate post which claimed no deaths while using these things. If you meant no deaths caused by the use of these things that is what you should have written.

You are right. There has been a reported death of a person that had been using a snorkel mask. I was completely wrong to imply otherwise.

Mention of the woman's age is an inappropriate way of suggesting possible causality, and one which I find personally offensive since I'm older than she was. That she was found without the mask certainly indicates that the mask may have been the problem.

I am sorry that you find actuarial statistics as they apply to accident analysis offensive and inappropriate.

So far, the only evidence that I have seen that the mask may cause a problem is this one case where the death was unwitnessed. Yes, the mask could have been the problem. "Could" is an important word. So like I said, happy to look at any data that you have beyond this one particular anecdote with no actual clinical information. Seriously, try to think about this scientifically, and not just as an Internet battle to be fought.

I'm assuming that you wouldn't call hiking shoes a death trap based on something like this, right?

 

[agilis]

You are right. There has been a reported death of a person that had been using a snorkel mask. I was completely wrong to imply otherwise.



I am sorry that you find actuarial statistics as they apply to accident analysis offensive and inappropriate.

So far, the only evidence that I have seen that the mask may cause a problem is this one case where the death was unwitnessed. Yes, the mask could have been the problem. "Could" is an important word. So like I said, happy to look at any data that you have beyond this one particular anecdote with no actual clinical information. Seriously, try to think about this scientifically, and not just as an Internet battle to be fought.

I'm assuming that you wouldn't call hiking shoes a death trap based on something like this, right?

Do you have actuarial statistics regarding age and snorkeling deaths? Or are you projecting from scuba data, or from general mortality tables? I am happy to look at any snorkeling mortality data you must have, since projections from scuba data would hardly be scientific. I believe the woman in the Hawaii incident drowned. I'm unaware of any age related disability (like a coronary condition) that might have caused her death.


I'm not engaging in an internet battle, only trying to apply logic and consistency to this issue. Hiking shoes? Is there any legitimate comparability? Still, I will try to think scientifically.

 

[2airishuman]

OK, so no actual reports of deaths or other issues while using these things. There is plenty of CCR mortality data available.

Again, not saying that it's a good idea or a bad idea, but I think that we shouldn't call something a "death trap" based on conjecture, when there aren't any actual instances of a death on this units happening that we can point to, at least none that implicate the gear itself.

The problem is that the data isn't being collected. There are some highly incomplete studies and reports out there, but no centralized data collection, and no information on what equipment was used or whether or how it contributed to the accident chain.

Snorkeling-related, swimming-related or coincidental deaths?

Way Too Many Tourists Are Dying In Hawaii | HuffPost

I asked you if you had any actual reports of deaths attributable to the mask and you said that you have no information about mortality data. That's fine, I understand why you think that it might be dangerous, and it's reasonable for you to make that case. And I'm happy to look at the other accidents that have been reported - as I said, I wasn't being snarky, I was actually interested. If you have reports of accidents, post them.

But I don't want to pretend that we have any actual evidence of lethality, just because we assume that it must be so.

I think what we have, based up in the spike in fatalities while snorkeling in Hawaii contemporaneous with the introduction of the new devices, is enough data to justify asking some questions and being concerned. I do not believe the safety implications are fully understood. Even if the main problem turns out to be overconfidence inspired by ease of use, it is worth understanding and preparing for.

Divers should be leaders in taking a thoughtful approach to water safety.

 

[doctormike]

Do you have actuarial statistics regarding age and snorkeling deaths? Or are you projecting from scuba data, or from general mortality tables?

Of course I don't have actuarial tables for snorkelers, and you know that such a thing doesn't exist. But here is an actuarial table that shows, for example, that a 70 year old is 16 times more likely to die in a give year than a 30 year old.

So while I'm projecting from a general mortality table, that would be statistically sound. Unless you can show that snorkeling somehow is protective for older participants when compared to younger people (that is, the act of snorkeling makes them less likely to die in any give year)

I believe the woman in the Hawaii incident drowned. I'm unaware of any age related disability (like a coronary condition) that might have caused her death.

Did you read the article? The autopsy showed ischemic cardiac disease, and she had moderate hypertension that was significant enough to require medical management. Again, I have no idea if that was a contributing factor or whatever. She was also using a cheap knockoff mask that might not have had the same CO2 handling ability as the ones that we are discussing here, but again, no data, so no conclusions.

The burden of proof is on the positive. If you think that these are more dangerous than conventional snorkels, then you need to show some evidence. One anecdote of an unwitnessed death in a 70 year old with hypertension and ischemic heart disease doesn't count as evidence to me. Again, I'm not married to the idea that these things are safe, and I'm happy to look at any actual data. So far, I have seen none.

Here, five people died snorkeling this year on the Great Barrier Reef. Here's a review of 140 people who died while snorkeling, before these full facemask snorkels were available. Would you conclude based on this that standard snorkels are a "death trap"?

Hiking shoes? Is there any legitimate comparability? Still, I will try to think scientifically.

Totally legitimate. Two 70 year olds with heart disease who both die without witnesses, using sports equipment that many, many people are able to use safely. Why would you conclude that the gear was an issue with one and not the other?

 

[doctormike]

I think what we have, based up in the spike in fatalities while snorkeling in Hawaii contemporaneous with the introduction of the new devices, is enough data to justify asking some questions and being concerned. I do not believe the safety implications are fully understood. Even if the main problem turns out to be overconfidence inspired by ease of use, it is worth understanding and preparing for.

Totally agree. But since conventional snorkels outnumber these things by thousands to one, I think that we have no evidence to assume that snorkeling deaths are primarily caused by this design. And it's important not to raise unfounded fears.

Here's a pretty good summary of some non-facemask snorkeling issues involved in deaths. 128 deaths in Hawaii between 2005 and 2016. I'll bet that the vast majority of these were using conventional snorkels, if not all of them.

 

[agilis]

Of course I don't have actuarial tables for snorkelers, and you know that such a thing doesn't exist. But here is an actuarial table that shows, for example, that a 70 year old is 16 times more likely to die in a give year than a 30 year old.

So while I'm projecting from a general mortality table, that would be statistically sound. Unless you can show that snorkeling somehow is protective for older participants when compared to younger people (that is, the act of snorkeling makes them less likely to die in any give year)



Did you read the article? The autopsy showed ischemic cardiac disease, and she had moderate hypertension that was significant enough to require medical management. Again, I have no idea if that was a contributing factor or whatever. She was also using a cheap knockoff mask that might not have had the same CO2 handling ability as the ones that we are discussing here, but again, no data, so no conclusions.

The burden of proof is on the positive. If you think that these are more dangerous than conventional snorkels, then you need to show some evidence. One anecdote of an unwitnessed death in a 70 year old with hypertension and ischemic heart disease doesn't count as evidence to me. Again, I'm not married to the idea that these things are safe, and I'm happy to look at any actual data. So far, I have seen none.

Here, five people died snorkeling this year on the Great Barrier Reef. Here's a review of 140 people who died while snorkeling, before these full facemask snorkels were available. Would you conclude based on this that standard snorkels are a "death trap"?



Totally legitimate. Two 70 year olds with heart disease who both die without witnesses, using sports equipment that many, many people are able to use safely. Why would you conclude that the gear was an issue with one and not the other?

Perhaps it was their underwear. Why pick on the shoes? Earlier iterations of these masks have been around since the late 50s. Too many accidents caused them to be withdrawn. Now they are being reintroduced for fearful neophytes, the last people who should be using them.

 

[doctormike]

Perhaps it was their underwear. Why pick on the shoes? Earlier iterations of these masks have been around since the late 50s. Too many accidents caused them to be withdrawn. Now they are being reintroduced for fearful neophytes, the last people who should be using them.

But that's the whole point. Earlier iterations. A piece of gear has safety issues. Do you (1) discard the whole concept, or (2) try to fix it and make it better? I'm not about to go diving with a 1950s era rebreather...

 

[tridacna]

Perhaps it was their underwear. Why pick on the shoes? Earlier iterations of these masks have been around since the late 50s. Too many accidents caused them to be withdrawn. Now they are being reintroduced for fearful neophytes, the last people who should be using them.

Following your logic, we should take SCUBA regulators off the market too. That will certainly help with reducing dive related deaths.

 

[agilis]

Following your logic, we should take SCUBA regulators off the market too. That will certainly help with reducing dive related deaths.

I

I'm concerned with unsafe or inappropriate equipment, not diving deaths. I never suggested taking the masks off the market. I replied to a question about the assumed safety of the masks and for any experience with them. I have an opinion about the first issue, and some experience as well. I believe that anyone who thinks the full face masks safer in some way is misguided. They also are, in my experience, less fun.