Snorkeling death

[dmaziuk]

I read it as a garden variety marketdroid troll, asking it specific questions is about as useful as trying to have a conversation with a cold-calling phone bot.

 

[Schwob]

I read it as a garden variety marketdroid troll, asking it specific questions is about as useful as trying to have a conversation with a cold-calling phone bot.

I give it a few days to see if an answer comes and if so, what it is before truly forming my own opinion, which if no answer comes might in essence not be so different than the one you expressed, just friendlier so. ☺
I quoted the post to which I asked the questions, the poster of that post thus was notified, for all I know maybe he needs some time to dig up specifics, but is willing to answer. It could also be that something was just being mistepresened. Either by the company (the poster) or by a middle man in the business of facilitaiting CE matks... We'll see. Or not. But I asked...

 

[Fdzzaigl]

You can review the manual of the product here:
http://userguides.tribord.s3.amazonaws.com/P16 USG Easybreath 17.08.2015 IT.pdf

As you can see, the product confirms to directive 89/686/EEC (EU regulation for personal protective equipment), which grants it the CE label. As you can also see, tests were carried out by the following institute: INPP:Statuts.

Please note that I'm replying to this thread in person, I'm not representing our entire brand here. Nor was it established that the product used in question was one of ours. If you do want specific information about our products, I will be able to provide it, but it might take some time.

 

[agilis]

Either of you care to elaborate? Not trolling, I have no financial interest in the product, but what is your concern about the design?

Clearly this is aimed at people who are less comfortable breathing through a mouthpiece than we all are. There have been snorkeling deaths with traditional equipment, as well as choking episodes, panic, etc...

I can see issues with CO2 related to dead space ventilation, but the devil is in the details and the design. Apparently there is an original and a knockoff - maybe there is the difference with regard to that particular issue.

But I don't see any reason to reject something out of hand that none of us have tried...

These masks were discussed here at length a couple of years ago. They are very dangerous, a potential death trap. They cannot be removed instantly upon surfacing as with a snorkel, and have any number of possible complications. I described these problems when the masks were first reviewed, as did many others. They are a marketing gimmick that promises to assuage the fear of submersing one's head but in reality they put the user's life at risk, especially a user likely to panic. The basic idea is more than 50 years old. They were dangerous then and remain so.

 

[doctormike]

These masks were discussed here at length a couple of years ago. They are very dangerous, a potential death trap. They cannot be removed instantly upon surfacing as with a snorkel, and have any number of possible complications. I described these problems when the masks were first reviewed, as did many others. They are a marketing gimmick that promises to assuage the fear of submersing one's head but in reality they put the user's life at risk, especially a user likely to panic. The basic idea is more than 50 years old. They were dangerous then and remain so.

Has that ever happened (a death from one of these masks)? Not being snarky, just wondering.

Seems like a lot of non-divers use them and have no problem taking them off if there is a leak, at least in my personal experience. I mean, people who are not comfortable in the water can drown just by swimming, but as far as these bing a death trap, is this conjecture or data? Also, the newer models do seem different from the older ones.. not sure if those improvements are relevant.

 

[tridacna]

These masks were discussed here at length a couple of years ago. They are very dangerous, a potential death trap. They cannot be removed instantly upon surfacing as with a snorkel, and have any number of possible complications. I described these problems when the masks were first reviewed, as did many others. They are a marketing gimmick that promises to assuage the fear of submersing one's head but in reality they put the user's life at risk, especially a user likely to panic. The basic idea is more than 50 years old. They were dangerous then and remain so.

Why can't they be removed "instantly"? I've tried one and donning/doffing was simple.

 

[agilis]

Has that ever happened (a death from one of these masks)? Not being snarky, just wondering.

Seems like a lot of non-divers use them and have no problem taking them off if there is a leak, at least in my personal experience. I mean, people who are not comfortable in the water can drown just by swimming, but as far as these bing a death trap, is this conjecture or data? Also, the newer models do seem different from the older ones.. not sure if those improvements are relevant.

I have no information about mortality data, which in any case is difficult to establish, even with closed circuit systems. Drowning is a cause of death that frequently has undetermined prior contributing factors. I did try one of the high priced versions of these things last year and found them confining and complex. I wondered, while using the device, about what would happen if the mask flooded and I were faced with removing it quickly. I might be OK, but then I'm not afraid of the water and can control panic reactions.

A good fitting mask and snorkel has the virtue of virtually foolproof simplicity. The full face masks are not that easy to remove instantaneously, and disaster may take only a single gulp of water. A snorkel should be in the snorkeler's mouth, not an integral part of the mask. You can spit out a snorkel but removing a multi-banded mask in the event, however unlikely, of mask snorkel failure may be another matter entirely. An inexperienced person might have difficulty even understanding that the mask should be removed.

 

[doctormike]

I have no information about mortality data, which in any case is difficult to establish, even with closed circuit systems. Drowning is a cause of death that frequently has undetermined prior contributing factors. I did try one of the high priced versions of these things last year and found them confining and complex. I wondered, while using the device, about what would happen if the mask flooded and I were faced with removing it quickly. I might be OK, but then I'm not afraid of the water and can control panic reactions.

A good fitting mask and snorkel has the virtue of virtually foolproof simplicity. The full face masks are not that easy to remove instantaneously, and disaster may take only a single gulp of water. A snorkel should be in the snorkeler's mouth, not an integral part of the mask. You can spit out a snorkel but removing a multi-banded mask in the event, however unlikely, of mask snorkel failure may be another matter entirely. An inexperienced person might have difficulty even understanding that the mask should be removed.

OK, so no actual reports of deaths or other issues while using these things. There is plenty of CCR mortality data available.

Again, not saying that it's a good idea or a bad idea, but I think that we shouldn't call something a "death trap" based on conjecture, when there aren't any actual instances of a death on this units happening that we can point to, at least none that implicate the gear itself.

As tridacna said, pretty easy to take off. Can we come up with a scenario where someone who is terrified of the water swims out into rough conditions, aspirates, panics and drowns? I guess so, but that's not a reason to dismiss the idea out of hand when it seems to work well for it's target demographic.

As I might have mentioned, my wife, who can barely bring herself to take a single breath off of a regulator standing in the shallow end of the pool, called this a "game changer". So it might be worth looking into.

 

[agilis]

OK, so no actual reports of deaths or other issues while using these things. There is plenty of CCR mortality data available.

Again, not saying that it's a good idea or a bad idea, but I think that we shouldn't call something a "death trap" based on conjecture, when there aren't any actual instances of a death on this units happening that we can point to, at least none that implicate the gear itself.

As tridacna said, pretty easy to take off. Can we come up with a scenario where someone who is terrified of the water swims out into rough conditions, aspirates, panics and drowns? I guess so, but that's not a reason to dismiss the idea out of hand when it seems to work well for it's target demographic.

As I might have mentioned, my wife, who can barely bring herself to take a single breath off of a regulator standing in the shallow end of the pool, called this a "game changer". So it might be worth looking into.

"So no actual reports of deaths or other issues while using these things." Where did you get that from? This discussion included mention of at least one death while using the device. Other accidents have been reported, though I have no details beyond what I read.

 

[doctormike]

"So no actual reports of deaths or other issues while using these things." Where did you get that from? This discussion included mention of at least one death while using the device. Other accidents have been reported, though I have no details beyond what I read.

There was one case of a 70 year old woman found floating, dead, with the mask. No one saw what happened. I mean, I understand the point that you are trying to make, but that one case simply doesn't make it. 3500 people in the US drown every year without snorkel masks, it's not such a rare event.

I asked you if you had any actual reports of deaths attributable to the mask and you said that you have no information about mortality data. That's fine, I understand why you think that it might be dangerous, and it's reasonable for you to make that case. And I'm happy to look at the other accidents that have been reported - as I said, I wasn't being snarky, I was actually interested. If you have reports of accidents, post them.

But I don't want to pretend that we have any actual evidence of lethality, just because we assume that it must be so.