small RB?

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SeaJay once bubbled...
I am? :wink: ... I think I need to change my avitar
Read some of your posts and your write-ups on your DIR-F class and backplates with great intrest. Someone has got to be really into it to spend that much time and work on the subject.
i don't think you need to change your avatar, but if you do maybe see if NG sells 'Always Wonder' T-s. Not only would it be you, but that's why we dive in the first place, isn't it?
SeaJay once bubbled...

My mind is always open. I wouldn't have been open to DIR if it hadn't been.
...But when I dove with them, I saw all of these really great ideas...
Funny, I posted that once. That I was suprised at the lack of openmindedness of many DIR divers, considering that's how they got there.
SeaJay once bubbled...

By the way, have you seen Halcyon's rebreather?
Yes, and I think it is an excellent RB for its purpose (deep cave penetration), and a very good one for most every dive else. Halcyon's website explains it very well, I imagine you've got that link. :wink: If you want to have a close look inside it to see how it all comes together, check out this link:
http://www.golemgear.com/scr/scrteardown.htm
The water drain is ingenious, Buchaly did an excellent job the rigs design. It certainly works. Would love to take one for a spin, probably have one, too. But they are very low volume, never ment for the mass market. And around $9K (without bp/w, harness, tanks, valves etc. or frame) in a transport box.
By the time you add all that, an O2 monitor (I would want one) and the required training, we're talking about 11grand or so. :(
SeaJay once bubbled...

That cartridge-filter thing looks like "just the ticket." I like that... Assuming, of course, that it works and that they're not charging an arm and a leg for them...
For Dolphin & Azimuth you have to buy a special cannister to house them, which goes for another $350. For the Inspiration they're supposed to work with the stock cannister. More after DEMA.
But I think the concept has a future, too.
SeaJay once bubbled...

Wouldn't it be cool to see the industry go that way?
The new Nemesis eCCR from OMG (Azimuth manufacturer) is supposed to have the cartridges as stock equipment, and be CEed. With Europe being a much larger RB-user market, getting CE-certification on the cartridges will help. If they can get it certified as optional equipment on Azis they can probably sell them well.
 
jplacson once bubbled...
... but that's my point...most RBs on the market now, are aimed at serious divers looking for 10 hour bottom times...... to cater to a niche of the niche... well, that limits your funding for research and development...not to mention raises prices of all prototypes...and limits production runs.
I think you're exxagerating a bit, not many RBs have ten hour capacity. Even with 8.5lbs. scrubber the RB80 can only do it to a certain depth and within temperature limits. But as I stated above, it was specifically designed to do that, for the few who do deep cave exploration.
Most RBs, no matter if SCRs or CCRs are in the 3 hour range. And on CCRs when diving a ppO2 of 1.4 that's the O2 limit anyway. Nobody says you have to use it all up in one dive. Three 1hr. dives are perfect for SoCal dive boats, for exmample. Just means you don't have to refill on the boat.
jplacson once bubbled...

Most OW divers just want to have fun, dive with friends, something to do on the weekend kind of thing... if I owned a Rebreather, it would really be pointless and, quite frankly, stupid if I dove with regular air people... and not extend my bt.
It depends why you want to use an RB in the first place. If you enjoy warm moist air and like to sneak closer to wild life, then an RB is a good ticket. Just not an $11K Halcyon or a used MK16 or Cis-Lunar. There are much less expensive SCRs like Dräger's Ray & Dolphin. They use Nitrox, 32 and 50 the former, 32,40,50 amd 60 the latter. Designed and marketed for recreational limits, profiles about the same as OC Nitrox. The Dolphin sells okay, I guess, mostly in Europe. The Ray seems a flop, at least I've never seen one in the water. So the Simple & Limited approach isn't quite as successfull as you may think. Most people spend all the extra money and training time on RBs to extend bottom times, reach further down and in, extend no-deco times and shorten those, too. They are a great tool for extended range, end those divers spend an unproportionate amount of dive dollars.
jplacson once bubbled...

I honestly think that a small RB, something that could just keep up with a single AL80, with a 130' depth capability... and a specially structured certification class (no need for prior scuba certs... something made for RB from the very start) would open up a whole new world for diving.
They tried that in Germany, certifying OW divers on Drägers. Sponsored by a hugely successfull recreational nitrox and SCR agency, NRC, Dräger/Aqualung and a local dive mag. Supposedly worked well, the students loved it.
jplacson once bubbled...

I'd love to see the day when traditional scuba gets phased out and everyone is on a rebreather of some kind. I feel the fish would be very grateful!!! :D Imagine having those noisy muffler cars driving through your neighborhood at all times of the day? That's probably how the fish feel whenever divers are close by! :lol:
Be nice, so we wouldn't have to defend ourself so much. But I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
caveseeker7 once bubbled...

Read some of your posts and your write-ups on your DIR-F class and backplates with great intrest. Someone has got to be really into it to spend that much time and work on the subject.

Ah, yes... You've got that right. :D


i don't think you need to change your avatar, but if you do maybe see if NG sells 'Always Wonder' T-s. Not only would it be you, but that's why we dive in the first place, isn't it?

Absolutely! What a great idea... :)


Funny, I posted that once. That I was suprised at the lack of openmindedness of many DIR divers, considering that's how they got there.

Are you speaking of the DIR divers you've met in person, or the online sort? I've found the ones I've met in person to be pretty open-minded... Which was surprising.

But yeah, I'm with you on that one. Actually, I tend to see closed-mindedness in pretty much everyone, regarding any topic that they're passionate about. I suspect that any closed-mindedness from the DIR community comes from the concept that they know what works, and they're afraid to mess something up which is otherwise "balanced" or "holistic."

Frankly, I can see both points of view.

I think open-mindedness is crucial, followed by education, research, trial and error, mentoring, and finally... Making a decision on what works... Then sticking to it. I believe that any "closed-mindedness" from that point comes from their fear that you might upset that procedure.

...But hey, that's just an initial impression of many divers, DIR or not... And since I don't have a Doctorate in Psychology hanging on my wall, my assessment could be completely off-base.


...we're talking about 11grand or so. :(

Yep. Ouch. That's why I don't have one.

I like your idea that a smaller, simpler (some might say "dumbed down") version would do amazing things to the RB industry... Thus providing a badly needed inflow of money and research into them... Which would benefit everyone.
 
SeaJay once bubbled...

Are you speaking of the DIR divers you've met in person, or the online sort? I've found the ones I've met in person to be pretty open-minded... Which was surprising.
Both. If I had a buck for everytime some guy with a shiny shingle and jet fins got in my face for not using the same I'd be diving an RB80 (with Force Fins :D )
SeaJay once bubbled...
Actually, I tend to see closed-mindedness in pretty much everyone, regarding any topic that they're passionate about.
Bulls Eye on that statement.
SeaJay once bubbled...

I think open-mindedness is crucial, followed by education, research, trial and error, mentoring, and finally... Making a decision on what works...
Problem is what works for me might not work for you. So I don't like to make decisions for what works for you, nor do I want someone else to make them for me. That's where I usually clash with the DIR way of life.
Ever read Lee's 'Tao of Jeet Kune Do'? Or his widow's easier to understand biography? With your philosophy you'll love either one. Learn everything you can, throw away what doesn't work for you. Wise man.
SeaJay once bubbled...

I like your idea that a smaller, simpler (some might say "dumbed down") version would do amazing things to the RB industry... Thus providing a badly needed inflow of money and research into them... Which would benefit everyone.
What I would like to see is a smaller scrubber option for the RB80, say to the length of 30cu.ft. cylinders, as a recreational configuration. Be a bit smaller and lighter, and still have decent bailout for rec dive profiles. And of course a price drop. Not because I think the rig isn't worth it, but so I can get one. :D
The design of a passive addtion SCR (RB80) is so much better than an active addition SCR (Dräger&Azi), and considerably safer due to the stabler breathing mix. The only way to make those any better is to turn them into KISSes. CMF O2 addition just below your metabolism, add O2 as needed.
To bad the K2/K3 never got off the ground. :(
 
As a DIR-F grad and current inspiration diver I have to agree with both of you. Being a former closed minded jerk, all I can say is they dont know what there missing. As my photography got more and more serious and my dives got deeper and deeper a RB was the only way to go.

It would be awesome to see an affordable rec version of a ccr, but thats not likely to happen anytime soon. Which is truly a bummer. There are guys out there that start on a RB from open water on through. I recently met a guy that started on the inspiration and thats all hes ever dove(has never dove open circuit). I have to say he was a great RB diver and I learned alot from him. He said his instructors name was Don(cant remember his last name). So that option must be available through IANTD. But unless you have family and friends diving them how would you even get turned on to it? There is definately no promotion in that. The general consensus seems to be that you have to dive open first.

As for DIR I think everyone should take the F course. It is quite an amazing experience and the skills learned are valuable to either OC or CCR divers. I dont think you can take it on a CCR though:D

Like you guys said take what you need and discard the rest.
 
anthony12 once bubbled...
As a DIR-F grad and current inspiration diver
The correct term is "Fallen Angel" :wink:

anthony12 once bubbled...

It would be awesome to see an affordable rec version of a ccr, but thats not likely to happen anytime soon.
How much is affordable? The KISS comes in at less than $5K, and the design idea is a very good one. I'll check them out asap, I'm curious if the craftsmanship is as good. Probably as close to a DIR mindset as an CCR can get.
anthony12 once bubbled...

He said his instructors name was Don(cant remember his last name). So that option must be available through IANTD.
Might be Don Townsend from Millenium Divers in FL. He does a lot of RB training on different units, and is IT for most of them. Didn't know CCR/OW was possible, but leave it to IANTD to be politically incorrect. There is a reason I like'em. :)
anthony12 once bubbled...

As for DIR I think everyone should take the F course. It is quite an amazing experience and the skills learned are valuable to either OC or CCR divers. I dont think you can take it on a CCR though:D
It's on my to-do list, though not as high as it probably shoud be. :rolleyes:
 
caveseeker7 once bubbled...

Both. If I had a buck for everytime some guy with a shiny shingle and jet fins got in my face for not using the same I'd be diving an RB80 (with Force Fins :D )

You're kidding... Really? I haven't found any DIR guys "in" anyone's face... Not in person, anyway, and the online versions of them are often questionable... For instance, they spout all sorts of incorrect assumptions about DIR that you just KNOW they didn't get in any GUE class.

At any rate, if anyone's been "in your face," then allow me to apologize for them. I can't be held responsible for their actions, and I know this... Like I said recently to someone regarding DIR, "I am not GUE, nor do I play one on T.V." Furthermore, I believe it was Uncle Pug who coined the phrase, "You might not be the best example of DIR." That goes for any individual in the DIR group, no matter who you are... Myself included.

Nonetheless, I know that when I'm on a boat with non-DIR divers (sidenote: I know some DIR divers who will not dive with other divers who are not DIR... I don't "draw the line" there, but at "unsafe divers." I might dive with people who are not DIR, but I don't dive with people who have unsafe attitudes... Which transcend DIR and PADI, NAUI, YMCA, and all the rest) I stand as an example of DIR to them. They've heard the rumors... All sorts of wacky stuff; most of it borne of truth but bastardized along the way into something rediculous. All I can do is do my best to represent the organization and try to do what I can to impress with a positive image. It's not easy, but it's for their own good... What sort of disservice would I be doing them if I turned them off to DIR altogether just because of my personal misgivings?

At any rate... Please allow me to apologize for those that poorly represented the group of divers that I respect and emulate. Please don't shoot the message because the messenger was a jerk. :)


Problem is what works for me might not work for you. So I don't like to make decisions for what works for you, nor do I want someone else to make them for me. That's where I usually clash with the DIR way of life.

That makes sense, and I feel exactly the same way.

...Which is why it was such an epiphany for me to find that when I was presented with the skill set taught in DIR-F, and tried some of their recommendations, I found that exactly what they'd been preaching all along was exactly what worked best for me.

...And here's the scary part: What worked best for me was radically different than what I'd been doing.

Here's the "even scarier" part: What I'd been doing was exactly what I'd been taught. Think about that for a moment and allow the implication of the shortcomings in today's mainstream scuba courses to float to the surface.

But since we're all individuals, you'll have to find out for yourself what works best for you. Just be sure to try the DIR way, along with other ways as well (you're obviously very educated about diving, so I'm assuming that you're fairly well-learned in non-GUE courses)... And be honest with yourself in what "the best way" really is. If history repeats itself, you'll find yourself looking more and more "DIR" every time you dive - just like the rest of us did. :)


Ever read Lee's 'Tao of Jeet Kune Do'? Or his widow's easier to understand biography? With your philosophy you'll love either one. Learn everything you can, throw away what doesn't work for you. Wise man.

Nope, I'll have to check that out. Sounds intriguing.


The correct term is "Fallen Angel"

Lol!!!


(DIR-F is) on my to-do list, though not as high as it probably shoud be.

It's not a cheap class, in terms of time or money... And it certainly will challenge the very core of your own diving philosophy. Best of all, you'll have the undivided attention of GUE instructors who are prepared to handle your every question. I highly recommend it.
 
SeaJay once bubbled...
I believe it was Uncle Pug who coined the phrase, "You might not be the best example of DIR."
Now that's a T I'd love to have: The CamelHead with the Uncle pug byline"Gotta stay wet to stay purdy" underneath and a large "You might not be the best example of DIR." wrapped around the side & top of the camel's head. :D
SeaJay once bubbled...

Please allow me to apologize for those that poorly represented the group of divers that I respect and emulate. Please don't shoot the message because the messenger was a jerk. :)
No I don't. You didn't do anything to apologize for on those trips. I do appreciate the thought, though. :) And don't worry, I usually don't shoot messengers. I throw them off the pier. :wink:
SeaJay once bubbled...

Here's the "even scarier" part: What I'd been doing was exactly what I'd been taught. Think about that for a moment and allow the implication of the shortcomings in today's mainstream scuba courses to float to the surface.

But since we're all individuals, you'll have to find out for yourself what works best for you.
No doubt, a lot of scuba training leaves much to be desired. Especially when you start out. My problem was never in the technical aspects (many of which are not exclusive to DIR/GUE) but with the philosophy that comes with it(and caters to intolerance).
SeaJay once bubbled...

It's not a cheap class, in terms of time or money... And it certainly will challenge the very core of your own diving philosophy. Best of all, you'll have the undivided attention of GUE instructors who are prepared to handle your every question. I highly recommend it.
We're talking diving here, not women. It better not be cheap, since it cost plenty. I found a GUE instuctor I get along with, who is more intrested in teaching something he believes is worth teaching, rather than converting me into a new deciple. I'm sure what he teaches is worth learning, but he understandsthat I'm a free-thinking spirit and that I won't stay away from CCRs, occasional solo dives etc. .
 
travel, without tanks of course, as carry on in the overhead bin. :D
Small enough for y'all?:D
 

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