Skill or Stupid Stunt

[ranger]

Dave,
I checked your profile and see that you are PADI and assume your DM friend is also PADI. Your thread indicates that you and friends were practicing skills, seemingly on your own with no supervision. I am assuming your DM friend was not indiscretely "teaching", and that everyone was there to just have fun. The reason I question the "teaching" is because if this is the case, then the DM would be assuming the responsibility for you as an illegal student. A PADI DM, if he/she is a working DM must be renewed and insured can only assist a renewed, insured instructor, that is on teaching status. There are very few things, withing PADI standards, that a DM can legally teach, and equipment removal is not one of them. They can demonstrate skills during classes, but only when directly supervised by an instructor. Equipment removal, underwater, is taught during DM class. Now if your DM friend was assuming a teaching role, he was breaking standards, and regardless of being renewed and insured he couldn't legally "teach". His reaction was due to liability, and if he was doing anything wrong as I have explained above, he knew it and was aware of the repercussions from the dive agency. If anything would have happened to any of you there could have been lawsuits as well. Once a diver completes his/her DM this is considered professional status and has to be careful not to misrepresent themselves as more than what they are. The bottom line is liability.......and I think this is what your friends reaction was all about. Should you be practicing skills...........yes.

 

[lundysd]

Believe it or not in my OW class (NAUI--this year) we practiced this skill on several occassions. My class was a little bit more in depth, however, and we practiced drills such as hovering while removing and replacing gear; these drills are merely beneficial in that they help divers such as myself become comfortable underwater with the gear. I make it a habit to practice these skills as often as I can, if for no other reason than it helps me with bouyancy a great deal.

 

[friscuba]

Here's a question. Had you ever been previouly briefed or shown the skill by an instructor? I sort of doubt your buddy the rescue diver is one to be teaching you new skills, at least when there's a DM or Instructor nearby and you are using their gear. He may have over reacted a tad, but taking it on yourself to learn new skills without proper instruction in his gear might have set him off.

There's nothing wrong with practicing, probably little wrong with some experimentation in this case, but a proper orientation would always be a good idea, and check with the others involved (his gear, he's involved) before just trying something new.

Just a thought,

Steve

 

[verona]

Just to clarify - the gear exchange exercise which is part of the DM course is done while buddy breathing (i.e one reg between two). It is not just the gear.

As for the question, it is good for novice divers to practise skills within limits. You are right - next time, do it in your own gear!

 

[wettek]

PADI teaches BCD removal and replacement as a skill during the OW course, as well as reg removal and replacement. By swapping gear, you are really only combining the 2 skills, so I don't really see what the big issue was. As far as I am, concerned, the more comfortable you are practising skills like this in a pool environment can only improve your overall abilities. I think the DM overreacted, as someone else said, maybe he was brand new, and full of his own self-importance

 

[Chad_Ordelheide]

Hi All,

I'm an inexperienced diver (5 post-cert dives) and don't know how much I don't know yet, so please be gentle.

Since my last dive in January (honeymoon in Cozumel) , I've been swimming twice a week at a local YMCA with some dive friends to stay in shape until the water gets warm enough for us to dive locally. The last few of weeks, we've put on scuba gear to practice skills and play in the pool. I don't own my gear yet, so I usually borrow a bcd, reg, weight belt and tank from a friend who is a new DM (DiveMaster).

Last week, we did some pool work. There was me, my dive buddy who got his OW with me, but is now a RD (Rescue Diver), the DM and his girlfriend who is AOW and working on RD. While my DM friend was helping his girlfriend prepare for her upcoming RD class, my dive buddy and I were at the deep end of the pool (12') practicing skills and playing around. We got bored and decided to swap gear underwater. Just to be clear, we didn't plan or discuss this above water, we just started doing it.

My dive buddy has integrated weights, so he had problems with being bouyant while we swapped bcds, but we actually finished and then ascended to the surface. We were greeted by one very annoyed DM friend. He chewed us both out for doing an advanced skill without training. My dive buddy questioned him a little and was told that he shouldn't be doing anything that advanced with a inexperienced OW diver like me and that there was a huge liability problem since I was in the DM's gear. He said I could hurt myself with my own gear, but I better not do it in his.

Everyone was edgy, so I just apologized and went on, even though I felt I did not fully understand the danger. I totally understand if anyone feels they are in legal jeopardy, so I'll be more careful when using someone else's gear. My question is were we doing something truly unsafe if it was my own gear?

I know from anecdote and this board that people are hurt and killed in pools, but I had lung over-expansion in my mind the whole time and was prepared to immediately exhale if bouyancy got out of hand. I'm also aware that an exercise like that should be planned better, but I didn't see the problem in the pool. I have removed and replaced my bcd/reg/tank undedrwater more than a few times, so adding weights, fins and masks didn't seems like a big stretch. I'm very comfortable in the water and in scuba gear, so I'm worried that I'm completely missing something that I should know.

I respect my DM friend a lot , but I really don't want to talk to him about this, since he feels strongly about it and I have an annoying tendancy to question people to death.

So was this a stupid stunt? A valid skill to practice? Something else?

Hmmm, it almost sounds like you DM friend is a little excited about his new DM rating. I can't think of a better place to go over different situations and mess around with your gear (If you want to call it that) than in a pool. Unfortunately, many of the money hungry swine, aka. Lawyers, have made many fun areas such as pools into a liabitily heaven. Who knows if that was really the motivating factor.

Personally, I did many such skill in my advaced class. You tell me how reading a book and listening to a quick speal all of a sudden makes it all safe. If you have a head on you shoulders you should be able to deal with pretty much any situation in a pool! Anyway, maybe I'm the only diver with that opinion. Have fun and don't kill youself
:11:

 

[The Kraken]

Removing and donning one's gear is a requisite skill in the PADI open water course.
I can see no legal or rational reason for a certified open water diver not to practice this skill in a confined water environment.
Which gear is donned after doffing, in my opinion, is irrelevant.
The only additional risk factor I can see that would be involved in such a skill practice would be the unfamiliarity with the new gear being donned.
But as to practicing the skill, itself, I say go for it.

And personally, I highly commend you for trying to improve your diving skills and to advance the same.

Safe dives . . .
. . . safer ascents!

the K

 

[Diver0001]

So was this a stupid stunt? A valid skill to practice? Something else?

I can appreciate the DM's concern from a liability standpoint. He had loaned you his gear and he was in the pool, which may have implied supervision, so there would have been some difficult questions to answer had one of you gotten hurt.

On the other hand, you're a certified diver now and if you want to practice these kinds of things it's pretty much your call. Just do yourself a favor and build up slowly.

I think the skill is a valid one from an equipment familiarity point of view and from a comfort point of view. You also learned something, which is that integrated weights have some significant drawbacks. (I personally think the use of integrated weights should be discouraged but that's another discussion)

If you do it again, do it in the shallow part of the pool and make sure you don't compromise your friend by doing it when any kind of supervision could be implied.

R..

 

[spectrum]

By swapping gear, you are really only combining the 2 skills, so I don't really see what the big issue was.

The only twist I see to the drill is the mixed weight formats. As long as it was being done in a non stess situation it sounds like a good underwater under water problem solving exercise, especially if you're working with a regular buddy. We did BC R&R from the first pools session so as long as the fits are close enough it sounds like appropriate skill growth. At worst it becomes a CESA drill but that sould be down pat by then too. In contrast, trying this in deep water, surge or zero visibility would be wreckless.

I can also appreciate al of the nuances of the DMs situation.

Pete

 

[kenlt]

I might have missed this if it was discussed, but in what real world situation would you ever have to swap gear with someone underwater? I understand situations where removing your own and putting it back on can happen, but it never occured to me to trade with anyone until I read this.

Thanks.