Single Tank Wing recommendations

[Aqua-Andy]

Tobin, I brought up the single layer wing because some people do want it. I would assume the major advantage is the weight and flexibility for packing in luggage. I read (somewhere I'm not sure at this point) that something like 95% of all BCs sold are of the conventional jacket or back inflate type, and I would venture a guess that probably 90% or more of those are of the single bladder design. I don't recall seeing an abundance of posts about leaking BCs. As to the donut wing argument, what is the benefit to this particular shape if it does not do what all the ignorant people think it does? The only thing I can see is it offers more lift in a wing while keeping the profile of the sides narrower. Am I off base here? The down fall to a donut would be (in my eyes) is more bladder material at the bottom of the wing therefor allowing more chance for a pinch flat in this vulnerable area. While we are on the subject of different methods of building a wing, what are the advantages/disadvantages to bladder materials coated nylon and urethane?

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I use the rear dump as well.
While in trim, the top part of the wing is slightly higher than the lower part of the wing, so the gas equalizes through that portion of the wing...... *BECAUSE* the upper part of the wing isn't between you and the tank...like the bottom part is.

While using the rear dump, the gas from the other side of the wing isn't going to travel from one side of the wing to the other....unless you go into a position where your shoulders are much lower than your hips, the gas just isn't going to go from one side of the wing to the other, via the lower part of the wing.

A donut wing isn't going to equalize in that way, unless you really exaggerate the head-down position.
I say this in reply to the posts that mention that a donut wing is somehow going to automatically equalize. It will not.

As Tobin pointed out, when venting gas from the drysuit....where is the gas in the wing going to travel?

Are divers see-sawing back and forth between venting their drysuits, and going butt down to equalize the gas in their wings??

I have not witnessed this.

Whether donut wing divers realize it or not, their wings are equalizing through the upper part of their wing. Just the same as horseshoe wings do.

My point is....that it makes no difference between the two. Just pick the size and shape wing that is the best match.

I'll give an example:

The Halcyon Evolve 40 (donut) matches well with the height of aluminum 80 doubles, but is too tall for LP95's (for example). The Explorer wings (horseshoe) are a better match (referring to the dimensions of the wing) for LP 95 doubles.

The DSS Torus 38 matches perfectly with double 80's and the Torus 49 is a great match for LP 95 doubles.


I think the DSS LCD 30 is the best match for single 80 tanks.

Size and shape are the deciding factors in choosing a wing (in my opinion).

The fact that a wing is a donut or a horseshoe design makes no difference at all.

Don't believe me, then try this:

Take a donut wing and assemble it with the plate and tank. Go walk out into waist deep water, and fill it about 1/3 full of gas.

Now submerge it horizontally.

Manipulate it's position so that all of the gas is in one side of the wing.

Next, position it back to a horizontal position. Gradually tilt it forward, in a "head down" position. See for yourself the angle it needs to be in before it starts equalizing through the bottom part of the wing.

Once you discover that angle, consider if you are ever assuming that same head-down angle during your dives.

**Keep in mind that this is with the rig not being worn by the diver. When you don the rig, the lower part of the wing is now sandwiched between you and the tanks.

Test it and see for yourself.....no forum myth....no magic.

Just test it, and see for yourself.

Cheers,
Mitch

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin, I brought up the single layer wing because some people do want it. I would assume the major advantage is the weight and flexibility for packing in luggage. I read (somewhere I'm not sure at this point) that something like 95% of all BCs sold are of the conventional jacket or back inflate type, and I would venture a guess that probably 90% or more of those are of the single bladder design. I don't recall seeing an abundance of posts about leaking BCs.

Jacket BC's don't have 6 lbs of hard edge stainless steel living next to the bladder.

Again as I have always said, always, the leading cause of wing damage is pinch flats, usually caused by the wing getting caught between the plate and some other hard surface during transport or storage. This is exactly why DSS wings are designed to be easily and quickly removed from the plate without tools or loose parts.

As to the donut wing argument, what is the benefit to this particular shape if it does not do what all the ignorant people think it does? The only thing I can see is it offers more lift in a wing while keeping the profile of the sides narrower. Am I off base here?

There really isn't any benefit, unless you include marketing. Wings provide lift *only* where there is gas in them. How much gas do you suppose in the lower arc of a typical donut wing? You know the part of the wing trapped between the lower end of the cylinder and your butt?

The down fall to a donut would be (in my eyes) is more bladder material at the bottom of the wing therefor allowing more chance for a pinch flat in this vulnerable area.

Donuts are bit more pinch prone, but it's usually the lower corner , not the center, of the plate that pinches the bladder. If a diver uses a short cylinder, meaning the wing is longer than the tank Horseshoe style wings offer some benefit WRT pinches from the tank and not the plate.

While we are on the subject of different methods of building a wing, what are the advantages/disadvantages to bladder materials coated nylon and urethane?

Straight urethane films stretch a bit. That helps a "2D" bladder fill a "3D" shell, and reduces the tendency to create gas trapping puckers. You can actually hear the gas moving around in a wing with a laminate bladder, they are noisy as the gas moves from one pucker to the next. Straight urethane films are easier to weld reliably, .030" thick urethane is much more forgiving than the .003 ~ .005" thick layer of urethane found on most laminates. Straight urethane films are easier to field repair vs laminates. If a laminate is damaged, single bladder wing OR laminate inner bladder the problem is the same, the urethane layer you need to patch is on the *INSIDE*. Lastly thick urethane films attenuate more impact energy, they are in effect a .030" cushion. Impact energy is what causes pinch flats.

If you want to really learn all about how to build wings I'd suggest you invest the ~$200K needed in equipment, dies, materials and R&D, design and prototype 20 or 30 designs and sell a few thousand to real divers and deal with the CS issues for the next 5-10 years.


Tobin

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I was admonished, by a GUE instructor, to only use the rear dump valve. Maybe it was a contextual thing....

Just to clarify, what I was posting previously.
As we all know, we can vent from the rear dump while being in trim.

The angle that you would need to be in, in order for gas to equalize through the lower part of the wing is quite a bit different.......you will need to be at a much different head-down angle for that to happen.

Especially, when there is not much gas in the wing to begin with.

Test it, and see for yourself.

 

[ams511]

This may be a stupid question but I will ask it anyway. Why couldn't you have a single-walled wing and a cover? If you want to go rec diving you can use the single wing and then if diving where the wing could get punctured zip on a cover. Also why don't plates have a rubber bumper around the perimeter to reduce impact damage. I am thinking about something like those rubber edges around dog tags to keep them from jingling.

 

[Aqua-Andy]

Tobin,

Jacket BC's don't have 6 lbs of hard edge stainless steel living next to the bladder.

Again as I have always said, always, the leading cause of wing damage is pinch flats, usually caused by the wing getting caught between the plate and some other hard surface during transport or storage. This is exactly why DSS wings are designed to be easily and quickly removed from the plate without tools or loose parts.

I agree totally but not all plates weigh 6 pounds, some are made out of plastic and some even cloth with plastic reinforcement.




There really isn't any benefit, unless you include marketing. Wings provide lift *only* where there is gas in them. How much gas do you suppose in the lower arc of a typical donut wing? You know the part of the wing trapped between the lower end of the cylinder and your butt?

So why do you offer these inferior donut wings? I understand the physics behind it and I'm not questioning that at all. I was thinking the part of the wing under the tank might provide some lift when the rig is not worn but floating in the water like when doffing in the water.



Donuts are bit more pinch prone, but it's usually the lower corner , not the center, of the plate that pinches the bladder. If a diver uses a short cylinder, meaning the wing is longer than the tank Horseshoe style wings offer some benefit WRT pinches from the tank and not the plate.





Straight urethane films stretch a bit. That helps a "2D" bladder fill a "3D" shell, and reduces the tendency to create gas trapping puckers. You can actually hear the gas moving around in a wing with a laminate bladder, they are noisy as the gas moves from one pucker to the next. Straight urethane films are easier to weld reliably, .030" thick urethane is much more forgiving than the .003 ~ .005" thick layer of urethane found on most laminates. Straight urethane films are easier to field repair vs laminates. If a laminate is damaged, single bladder wing OR laminate inner bladder the problem is the same, the urethane layer you need to patch is on the *INSIDE*. Lastly thick urethane films attenuate more impact energy, they are in effect a .030" cushion. Impact energy is what causes pinch flats.

Thank you, you never hear the actual benefits of ether type discussed just this is what I have or make so it is better.

If you want to really learn all about how to build wings I'd suggest you invest the ~$200K needed in equipment, dies, materials and R&D, design and prototype 20 or 30 designs and sell a few thousand to real divers and deal with the CS issues for the next 5-10 years.

Sounds like your over compensating for something. If I were to really start my own company I would start by using a catchy acronym for a name and then farm all the production out to manufacturers that already make quality products then under sell everyone else. One final detail to my world dominating scheme, I would treat my customers with the utmost respect and not talk down to them.


Tobin

 

[divad]

I use the rear dump as well.
While in trim, the top part of the wing is slightly higher than the lower part of the wing, so the gas equalizes through that portion of the wing...... *BECAUSE* the upper part of the wing isn't between you and the tank...like the bottom part is.

While using the rear dump, the gas from the other side of the wing isn't going to travel from one side of the wing to the other....unless you go into a position where your shoulders are much lower than your hips, the gas just isn't going to go from one side of the wing to the other, via the lower part of the wing.

A donut wing isn't going to equalize in that way, unless you really exaggerate the head-down position.
I say this in reply to the posts that mention that a donut wing is somehow going to automatically equalize. It will not.

As Tobin pointed out, when venting gas from the drysuit....where is the gas in the wing going to travel?

Are divers see-sawing back and forth between venting their drysuits, and going butt down to equalize the gas in their wings??

I have not witnessed this.

Whether donut wing divers realize it or not, their wings are equalizing through the upper part of their wing. Just the same as horseshoe wings do.

My point is....that it makes no difference between the two. Just pick the size and shape wing that is the best match.

I'll give an example:

The Halcyon Evolve 40 (donut) matches well with the height of aluminum 80 doubles, but is too tall for LP95's (for example). The Explorer wings (horseshoe) are a better match (referring to the dimensions of the wing) for LP 95 doubles.

The DSS Torus 38 matches perfectly with double 80's and the Torus 49 is a great match for LP 95 doubles.


I think the DSS LCD 30 is the best match for single 80 tanks.

Size and shape are the deciding factors in choosing a wing (in my opinion).

The fact that a wing is a donut or a horseshoe design makes no difference at all.

Don't believe me, then try this:

Take a donut wing and assemble it with the plate and tank. Go walk out into waist deep water, and fill it about 1/3 full of gas.

Now submerge it horizontally.

Manipulate it's position so that all of the gas is in one side of the wing.

Next, position it back to a horizontal position. Gradually tilt it forward, in a "head down" position. See for yourself the angle it needs to be in before it starts equalizing through the bottom part of the wing.

Once you discover that angle, consider if you are ever assuming that same head-down angle during your dives.

**Keep in mind that this is with the rig not being worn by the diver. When you don the rig, the lower part of the wing is now sandwiched between you and the tanks.

Test it and see for yourself.....no forum myth....no magic.

Just test it, and see for yourself.

Cheers,
Mitch

I've always agreed with this.
Yesterday I experimented with rear-dump-only and was almost completely inverted with big-air feet before the wing was empty, so maybe it's good for practicing snapping back into a horizontal position. Actually, if you just roll the air around like you would with a drysuit or non-donut wing, the rear dump is fine. I also tried just rolling my whole body and venting the wing and suit at the same time. That worked pretty well with smaller amounts of venting, ie, more subtle. Tomorrow I'll experiment again with rolling, and I think, un-crimping the bottom of the wing.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Jacket BC's don't have 6 lbs of hard edge stainless steel living next to the bladder.
Again as I have always said, always, the leading cause of wing damage is pinch flats, usually caused by the wing getting caught between the plate and some other hard surface during transport or storage. This is exactly why DSS wings are designed to be easily and quickly removed from the plate without tools or loose parts.

I agree totally but not all plates weigh 6 pounds, some are made out of plastic and some even cloth with plastic reinforcement.

Lightweight plates are less of a risk to pinch flat wings, but most plates are stainless, and the ballast that stainless plates provide up over the divers lungs is one of the key benefits of a BP&W in many applications. The wing designer / manufacturer has zero control over what plate may ultimately be used with any given wing.

The simple fact of the matter remains that single layer wings have much higher warranty costs associated with them. Combine a lower price point product with higher warranty costs and it's just no worth it. If I could sell single bladder wings for *more* money than a dual layer wing it might make sense, but that's going to be a tough sell. This reality, realized by most (all?) wing makers remains regardless of whether or not you wish to believe it.

Of course what do I know I only design and sell them and have access to production and sales and warranty numbers for stainless plates vs light weight plates and dual layer wings vs single layer wings.



Twice now you have attempted to put words in my mouth, Twice. First here where you attempted to portray me as seeing all buyers of donut wings as ignorant and misinformed, which I *never* did. I said many first time BP&W buyers repeated false marketing hype.

So the question arises why do you offer full circle wings if the only people that purchase them are the ignorant and the misinformed?

And now you are trying to claim that I find donut wings "Inferior" I've never said anything of the sort. Show me where I said donut wings were inferior? In fact I specifically stated that donut wings work fine.

So why do you offer these inferior donut wings?

If you want to really learn all about how to build wings I'd suggest you invest the ~$200K needed in equipment, dies, materials and R&D, design and prototype 20 or 30 designs and sell a few thousand to real divers and deal with the CS issues for the next 5-10 years.

Sounds like your over compensating for something. If I were to really start my own company I would start by using a catchy acronym for a name and then farm all the production out to manufacturers that already make quality products then under sell everyone else. One final detail to my world dominating scheme, I would treat my customers with the utmost respect and not talk down to them.

It's simply not possible to gain a complete understanding of wing design, manufacturing, and warranty service without having your hands and $$ in the project for years. It's naive to think you will become an expert by reading online forums.

If want you want is respect perhaps you should stop trying to put words in other peoples mouths. I've been more forthcoming than any other wing designer and manufacturer, and yet you seem bent trying to play "gottcha" I have zero respect for people that knowingly distort what I have said.

Have you noticed that very few other gear makers bother with SB, or only answer perfunctory questions specific to models they offer? Trust me, folks like you are a major reason why, makes me re-evaluate if I should bother, or just stay quite and let ignorance reign.

Tobin

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I've always agreed with this.
Yesterday I experimented with rear-dump-only and was almost completely inverted with big-air feet before the wing was empty, so maybe it's good for practicing snapping back into a horizontal position. Actually, if you just roll the air around like you would with a drysuit or non-donut wing, the rear dump is fine. I also tried just rolling my whole body and venting the wing and suit at the same time. That worked pretty well with smaller amounts of venting, ie, more subtle. Tomorrow I'll experiment again with rolling, and I think, un-crimping the bottom of the wing.

I played around with both types of wings awhile back after reading the usual posts.
It's sort of revealing isn't it?


Cheers,
Mitch

 

[Oldbear]

... It's naive to think you will become an expert by reading online forums....

OMG...:shocked2:

I was just about to send out my recently updated resume after reading Online Forums for Rocket Science and Brain Surgery. Now you say that after reading those forums I am NOT an expect.


Tobin...In all seriousness, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your posts and learn from them...keep up the good work and job well done Sir.