Single Tank Wing recommendations

[Aqua-Andy]

Go big or go home. Deep down you want the best.

Ah, I'll just go home I don't have the extra $120 .

 

[chrpai]

Ah, I'll just go home I don't have the extra $120 .

I kind of have to look at it as the glass is half full. One the positive side, my LDS is selling backplates and wings. On the negative side ScubaPro wants more for the wing then I paid for my entire rig. I've already got mine so maybe I'll see more divers in BP/Ws going forward. And paying too much for 1 BP/W is still cheaper then paying too much for 2 rigs.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I'd love to know how this actually works. Gas in a wing *always* goes to the highest possible point, *always*, the laws of physics are pretty stubborn after all.

The lower arc of a donut wing is at the absolute lowest point, i.e. under the lower end of the cylinder(s) for a horizontally trimmed diver.

How exactly does the air move from high on one side of the wing, to the lowest point, under the tank, and back up to the other side while maintaining horizontal trim?

Tobin

The only way would be if the diver happens to be in an inverted position as in a heads down decent.
The only reason a donut is a criteria for me is because that's what my customers demand. So with that in mind I try to steer them towards the best current option in that. Why they choose that design, I don't know, probably hype - the power of advertising.

Have you considered making a single walled wing again?
Nobody makes one anymore.
I know there is a market right in your back yard in Socal for them.
I think there would be a larger market for an economical simple single walled design.
It seems to me that there's a runaway design idea that all wings have to have the toughest inner bladder design blah blah blah.
Most regular BC's have a single wall design, why isn't that good enough for a wing?

 

[cool_hardware52]

The only way would be if the diver happens to be in an inverted position as in a heads down decent.
The only reason a donut is a criteria for me is because that's what my customers demand.

What if your customers demands are based on ignorance and misinformation?

One of my goals is to educate my customers and let them make an informed choice, not simply repeat marketing hype.

No axe to grind here, we offer both horseshoe style and full circle wings.....


Single bladder wings? Why have they disappeared? Simple, the dual layer wings are more robust.

Tobin

 

[Aqua-Andy]

What if your customers demands are based on ignorance and misinformation?

One of my goals is to educate my customers and let them make an informed choice, not simply repeat marketing hype.

No axe to grind here, we offer both horseshoe style and full circle wings.....


Single bladder wings? Why have they disappeared? Simple, the dual layer wings are more robust.

Tobin

So the question arises why do you offer full circle wings if the only people that purchase them are the ignorant and the misinformed? Your comments on the single layer wing sound very contradictory to what you are saying in the beginning of your post. Does everyone need the more robust wing or is it just marketing hype?

 

[chrpai]

What if your customers demands are based on ignorance and misinformation?

Ok, I'll bite. I dive a single tank 27lb donut wing. Enlighten me, I'm listening.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Ok, I'll bite. I dive a single tank 27lb donut wing. Enlighten me, I'm listening.

I speak with 2-3 newish divers everyday on average. Most are considering the purchase of their first back plate and wing. A very high percentage are hugely concerned with whether or not a given wing is a "donut" because they have been told that only donuts are worth diving.

The usual reason given is "donuts let the air circulate and that makes venting easier" or "horseshoe wings trap gas and are hard to use" i.e. the same marketing hype repeated over and over and over on various forums.

The reality is almost never does any gas move from one side of a donut wing to the other via the lower "arc" of the wing. The lower arc is the absolutely lowest point on the wing for a horizontally trimmed diver. The lower arc is after all *UNDER* the lower end of the cylinder.

As I have pointed out many times, even once prior in this very thread, gas always, *always* goes to the highest point in a wing.

In order to get gas to shift from one side of a donut wing to the other via the magic, absolutely required, don't leave home without it, special circulation and vent easing lower arc the diver need be at least 45 degrees head down. Do you ascend butt first? That's something I try to avoid, particularly when diving in a drysuit.

Gas is after all pretty dumb, and incapable of knowing it's in a donut wing and no longer bound by the laws of physics, allowing the enlightened diver to simply will it by force of mind control alone to move down under the lower end of the cylinder and up to the other side.

What makes a wing hard to vent or easy to vent is the degree of tank wrap. Large lift volumes and or wider center panels (the portion of the wing that does not inflate) leads to more tank wrap. This is true of both horseshoe and donut wings. The reality is nearly all gas in a wing moves from one side to the other via the top arc, the top arc is able to rise a bit higher than the bottom arc. The valve(s) and first stage(s) limit the top arc a bit, but that is still a lot higher than the lower arc which again is between the lower end of the cylinder and your rear end.

Donut wings aren't evil, if they were I would not make and sell them. They generally work fine, and the diver simply is unaware that the lower arc almost never has any gas in it. They also aren't magic, a well designed horseshoe wing with proper capacity and narrow center panel will be just as easy to use and vent.

Most wings in the early days of BP&W were huge horseshoe doubles wings, 70+ lbs of lift and a 10-12 inch wide center panel. When fitted with a single tank adapter and single tank these "horseshoe" wings frankly suck. A smaller capacity narrow center panel single tank wing, donut or horseshoe will be far easier to dive, because of reduced tank wrap, not because of the lower arc.

Once a diver understands how a wing works, and where the gas will be in it much of the mystic and mystery of the must have donut wing fades and the diver is better equipped to evaluate wings based on overall shape, and capacity.

Tobin

---------- Post added April 23rd, 2013 at 02:33 PM ----------

So the question arises why do you offer full circle wings if the only people that purchase them are the ignorant and the misinformed? Your comments on the single layer wing sound very contradictory to what you are saying in the beginning of your post. Does everyone need the more robust wing or is it just marketing hype?

When did I say you must be ignorant or misinformed to buy a donut wing? Many are, but's not a requirement.


Not sure why you wish to argue about single layer wings. My statement is true, dual layer wings are more robust. There is also no good factory means to repair a single layer wing. If there is a problem the manufacturer's only recourse is to replace it. Before telling me about how you or "Joe" fixed his single layer wing you need to consider that a manufacturer has to be able to satisfy his insurance carrier, and huge globs of aquaseal may be fine for Joe diver, but no manufacturer is going to make such repairs.

Dual bladder wings allow for a replacement bladder. We don't repair bladders, but do replace bladders for the same reason I gave above.

What's the main attraction of a single layer wing? Easy, they are cheaper. How do you think the diver that was attracted by lower cost will react when they are told they need a new wing because their single bladder wing cannot be repaired?

After a few of those phone calls it's not too terribly difficult to decide to discontinue the "budget" model...........

Tobin

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I frequently mention it in these threads; It makes no difference to me if I am diving a donut or horseshoe wing.

Thanks for that post Tobin, you make a good point about trim and divers diving dry suits.
As an experiment, if you put a horse shoe bladder inside of a donut shell most people wouldn't know the difference.

How often do divers pitch forward head down/butt up during a dive to balance the gas in their wing?

I never do...... the gas is equalizing through the top of the wing. Your shoulders are slightly higher than your hips.
Why would anyone pitch forward into a head down position repeatedly during the dive in an attempt to move gas from left to right? That is already happening normally throughout the dive through the upper part of the wing.
I don't get the "balancing my gas" thing either.....I just don't have that much in my wing anyway.

Don't worry so much about balancing your gas......focus on balancing your rig.:cool2:


Just get the correctly sized, and shaped wing, there is no need to worry about horseshoe or donut.

This is definitely one of those forum myths that so many people buy into.

Fact: Gas moves up. Not down.

Cheers,
Mitch

 

[chrpai]

Most wings in the early days of BP&W were huge horseshoe doubles wings, 70+ lbs of lift and a 10-12 inch wide center panel. When fitted with a single tank adapter and single tank these "horseshoe" wings frankly suck. A smaller capacity narrow center panel single tank wing, donut or horseshoe will be far easier to dive, because of reduced tank wrap, not because of the lower arc.

I dove from 2000 - 2005 and stopped when my wife got cancer. In 2005 I had picked up a used AL backplate and webbing but hadn't got my hands on a wing yet. I remember those big wings and was focused on a relatively donut wing. It took me 7 years to resume that mission and when I came here and saw the DRIS 28lb special I couldn't help think how that was cheaper then my first BCD. I've always heard great things about your stuff too and I certainly love the bungee mounts for my compass and computer that you made.

Back to "donut". Well, I suppose there are worse things people could be brainwashed on. I can think of far worse gear choices that divers make everyday with a little help from LDS...

 

[divad]

I never do...... the gas is equalizing through the top of the wing. Your shoulders are slightly higher than your hips.

Mitch

I was admonished, by a GUE instructor, to only use the rear dump valve. Maybe it was a contextual thing....