Shouldn't DSMB be required as part of training?

[Hawkwood]

Odd.... I did my OW training (in 2006) through PADI & was never taught to deploy an SMB from the surface or below. But then I was taught only the very basic bare bones skills. I was never even told what an SMB was...

Standards change.

 

[danvolker]

Just did a search on Google...this was a good depiction of all the steps needed for you to TEACH YOURSELF how to shoot a bag.
Watch it a few times and I can't think of a reason that it should not be easy for you...other than the buoyancy issue....Save yourself some money if you can't do this today.
[video=youtube;iUXxgwrDPnE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUXxgwrDPnE&[/video]

Step one is being able to hold the stop depth without even trying. Practice on every dive until it's easy. The Peak control Bouyancy class that teaches this IS worth the time and money...as is the GUE Fundies alternative...From good buoyancy control, watch how easy this is!!!


We have to be careful what skills we let the world think need to be taught. You should not need to take a class in how to walk down a side walk...but if enough people suggest it, someone will start teaching the class, and sooner or later, insurance issues will demand we all take it. Diving is so far into this already, it is already ridiculous. "Boat Diver" ? "Deep Diver"( actually should be called shallow diver, as is NOT deep)...."Multilevel Diver"... Ha!! ... Sure we need a "DSMB Diver" !!!!

 

[Phil_C]

I agree completely - DSMB use is not rocket science, and should be part of obligatory dive training at a basic level. This is not an advanced technique. For example in BSAC it is a requirement for basic certification, and is used as a 'stress' tester in other courses.

I'm currently working my way through the BSAC workshops and specialty courses to make sure I thoroughly learn their way of doing things, and on the buoyancy and trim workshop, to qualify to the higher standard required for the more advanced courses, one test is holding depth with correct trim and buoyancy, within 30 cm of the set depth, whilst deploying an DSMB.

I'm afraid that in my view not teaching DSMB use, and teaching the safety reasons and situations when it should be used, is just taking shortcuts and not equipping divers with the skills they need to be a safe diver. I won't agency bash - any agency that doesn't teach this skill, and relies on divers having a DM or guide to do this for the diver is taking shortcuts.

OK - holiday/vacation divers who are never going to do an unsupervised dive will probably not often/ever have to use one, but to give someone a card that says they are qualified to dive independently but doesn't give them this skill, is giving divers a false sense of security. - Phil.

---------- Post added May 9th, 2015 at 12:54 PM ----------

OW classes are so short they don't teach proper buoyancy, trim, propulsion, weighting, etc etc. You have most divers not being truly comfortable performing simple tasks like mask removal and replacement while hovering, you can't expect them to inflate a marker buoy and shoot it to the surface without bringing them with it. It's just not realistic.

Maybe a controversial comment - but if this is really the case that OW courses are producing divers like this who are not comfortable or confident with basic tasks then I don't think they should be getting certified until they are. Surely we must maintain the standard that OW certification means competent to dive safely in conditions similar to their training, and competent surely means having mastered the basics. Or is this just a symptom of the commercial aspect of getting divers certified and taking their money? - Phil.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Not all OW courses are short. Mine is 6-8 weeks. The shortest I'd be willing to do is maybe 4. But if that were to happen the student would have to be prepared for two days a week spending about 6 hours each day. 1/2 in classroom and 1/2 in pool. I have a private OW class now. Started two weeks ago. The student is a physician with a bit of a strange schedule. We can only do 4 hours a day once a week. One week out of every three he is on call and we can't be underwater. So on that week we do a three hour classroom. Pool time will increase the following week but not so that he is getting too cold or fatigued. His class is going to take closer to ten weeks because of these issues and he's fine with that. As am I.

I'm taking two other students for checkouts on the 30th. One started his classroom and pool in November. The other in January. Each now has a total of 40 hours between the classroom and pool. I like teaching in this manner. To the point where I'd rather have less students that are willing to do this than be swamped with large numbers. The pace is relaxed, they get a lot of practice, we can spend time on little details and refining techniques.

They also don't look like new OW divers when we get to checkouts. It's one of the benefits of a good relationship with another shop that has a pool. I set the schedule, not the shop other than saying when the pool is available. For me Thursday evenings is mine. From 4 PM until as late as I want it. Or any other time it's not being used.

I'm also fortunate that my OW divers are certed through an agency that allows me to decide when skills are introduced and in what order. I am also required to add any that I think will benefit my students for our local conditions and test on them as a cert requirement if I want. Shooting a DSMB is a skill that I feel is beneficial to them locally and in destinations that my students seem to be interested in and so it's a required skill.

 

[hroark2112]

No disrespect intended, but why does every possible skill need to be "mandated to be taught in open water"? If it was mandatory to have every skill you might possibly need at some point in your diving career taught in OW, the class would be months long and prohibitively expensive. 90% of the skills would rarely or never be used by most divers. The skills you don't use or practice are lost.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with continued education, skills practice after certification, or taking personal responsibility for learning the skills you need for the diving you'll be doing.

Here in NC, we carry a sausage with us on every dive. We almost never use them. However, when drift diving off the Florida coast, I see divers with <25 dives total sending up a sausage with no issues at all, because it's a necessary skill for their diving location.

If you think you need to learn a skill, find a way to learn it. Don't rely on a dive agency to require you to learn it.

 

[Bob DBF]

No disrespect intended, but why does every possible skill need to be "mandated to be taught in open water"? If it was mandatory to have every skill you might possibly need at some point in your diving career taught in OW, the class would be months long and prohibitively expensive. 90% of the skills would rarely or never be used by most divers. The skills you don't use or practice are lost.

Not every skill is mandated, most Agencies don't mandate many. I was glad the Instructor I had for OW, and the one I had when I learned to dive, they covered as many possible skills in the water or discussions of scenarios in class that came in handy over the years I've been diving. As for the cost, my OW was a bit more than it is now, way back in 1980, and was similar to the one Jim teaches.

As for "The skills you don't use or practice are lost", the skills you don't learn about cannot come back to you when you need them. Case in point, was when my buddy, a DM, wanted to practice buddy breathing (1 second). He wondered why I positioned myself the way I did when handing him the reg. It took me a while to remember, but it was to enable the donor to retrieve the reg from the OOA diver if they wanted to keep it. I hadn't used the skill in at least 30 years, and he had not been taught the skill when buddy breathing as a DM.

Everything you learn is in your head all you have to do is access it, of course if you never learn it...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with continued education, skills practice after certification, or taking personal responsibility for learning the skills you need for the diving you'll be doing.

The problem is that there is no rule that mandates that anyone ever take another course after OW. As for AOW, it will most likely be a ticket punch, unless you get a good instructor and you will probably pay more for that as well.



Bob
-----------------------------------------

That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

 

[Steve_C]

If you are diving off of a boat in NC, you would ascent up the anchor line, and if a dsmb was to be sent, the DM would shoot it because only one for the group has to be shot.

What DM? You are diving buddy pairs, or maybe solo. Sometimes a diver does not find the anchor line in time and decides to shoot a dmsb. Seen it happen a couple times out on the ledges in so so viz. Yes they should have run a line or had better situational awareness but DSMBs are handy. Some dive boats for some dives require divers to carry at least an SMB and if I am drifting along on a safety stop I want the boat to know where I am so I perfer a DSMB.

 

[hroark2112]

There is also no rule that states all education must be part of a certification after OW. You can still learn skills & get no card.

 

[Z Gear]

No disrespect intended, but why does every possible skill need to be "mandated to be taught in open water"? If it was mandatory to have every skill you might possibly need at some point in your diving career taught in OW, the class would be months long and prohibitively expensive. 90% of the skills would rarely or never be used by most divers. The skills you don't use or practice are lost.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with continued education, skills practice after certification, or taking personal responsibility for learning the skills you need for the diving you'll be doing.

Here in NC, we carry a sausage with us on every dive. We almost never use them. However, when drift diving off the Florida coast, I see divers with <25 dives total sending up a sausage with no issues at all, because it's a necessary skill for their diving location.

If you think you need to learn a skill, find a way to learn it. Don't rely on a dive agency to require you to learn it.

The problem I have with that is some skills like this one might be something you should already know before you realize you need it. In other words before an incident presents itself, which could be on any OW dive scenario.

 

[Phil_C]

Don't forget about the concept of unconscious incompetence - sometimes you just don't know what you don't know !

Someone above mentioned they had not even heard of a DSMB, let alone when or how to use it during their open water course. Even if you do not practice using one for years if you at least know it is an option and when and how to use it, then you know when you might need one, and can take the time to gain or regain the skills, whether through peer to peer learning or a formal course.

I also think that in an open water course other types of diving and how the conditions and procedures might differ from the local scene should be discussed, but sadly I too often see instructors who clearly don't have the experience in other conditions themselves. Maybe a product of the zero to hero type regimes, but I not sure that is always the case - Phil.