Should they require swimming for OW certificate?

[fisherdvm]

Got any evidence to support the your position that scuba divers who complete a 300 yd snorkel during training instead of a 200 yd swim are more likely to die while scuba diving?


Jackie

It took me less than 5 minute in the 2006 DAN report. Of course, DAN is not complete. Only a fraction of rec divers are registered.

I think it was case 4-22 from 2006 DAN report. Obese middle aged man. Had problem putting his fin on before entry. Struggled to swim to site, and was seen breathing hard.

Question: heart attack or out of shape... No body knows, except God. We'll never find out if he passed his 200 yard swim.

 

[fisherdvm]

No need to use intuition. DAN's web site will describe every diver death. You can go there and count the number of deaths that can be attributed to this standard.

By the way, your trust in your intuition might take a hit when you do this.

I certainly can not, nor DAN can not, attribute diver's death due to substituting swimming standard for "snorkeling".

But in 2005, of the 67 reported cases of death, about 40 were of drowning. Five of the cases occurred even before the descend. And about 1/3 occurred after ascend.

Intuition would say, better swimmer, better physical shape, less problem at the surface. You figure it out.

 

[Diving Doc]

Just to let u know, a European directive forbids the use of the 300m snorkel swim to prove watermanship skills. Although PADI says it is acceptable, all training in the UK has to include the 200m continuous swim plus 10 min float

 

[drbill]

Glad to see the results of this poll so far. I'm a firm believer that a person should be able to swim with reasonable proficiency to dive. I don't care what stroke they use or if it takes them a while to make enough forward progress, as long as they can do so without drowning and without getting compleely out of breath.

Hmmm... come to think of it though, they don't require the ability to fly (with wings, not as a pilot) if you want to go skydiving. Maybe that is much more important!

 

[undefined]

I'm in the minority - I used a mask and snorkel. It was simple - I had the gear on from doing the pool session, and jumped in. Granted, I did 300m and would have gladly done another 300m. PADI said either/or, so I went with the alternative.

Then again, if my instructor had bothered paying attention (or even being near the pool at the time) he would have noticed that the swimmers were stopping at about 3 or 4 laps and getting out, all proud of themselves. None mentioned that they only completed 3 - 4 laps (of a required 10, 15 w/ snorkel) to the instructor, yet I was the sissy for using fins and a snorkel....

Where are the scuba police when you need them?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Hmmm... come to think of it though, they don't require the ability to fly (with wings, not as a pilot) if you want to go skydiving. Maybe that is much more important!

Well, when we dive in caves the ability to surface swim won't save us. If our equipment completely forsakes us, we die. Sort of like the pilot who's plane stops flying. He's going to fall and that's all there is to it.

But... for pilots, as well as divers who dive in envronments where there is no way out other than to continue diving, there's lots of other training that open water divers aren't required togo through.

Ther is another aspect also. Tom Mount talks about what he calls survival training. He's refering to going until you can't go anymore and then going a bit further. It's preperation for the situation where you're about out of options, out of wind and out of strength but you need to find a way to go just a bit more. The stamina and watermenship skills that IANTD recommends (they aren't required for all courses) kind of relect that philosophy. Look at the list in their standards. All that is sopossed to be done with no more than 5 minutes of rest inbetween.

I always point to poor skills as the primary reason for diving deaths and I absolutely think that what gets divers in trouble but, lots of them could still live if they didn't give up. Whether they panic or just quit, some of them are still very much alive when they make the decission to stop working toward a solution.

We encourage this. We make training easier. Not by improving training methods but by just taking things out of training. ooops, all of a sudden, you just don't need to know it anymore. We'll certify those who aren't comfortable enough in the water, can't swim, are in lousy shape ect. They have absolutely no skills or abilities to draw on in a situation like this. They can't make up for lousy diving skills with stamina, determination and watermenship skills and they can't avoid the need for the survival skills by using their great diving skills because they don't have those either.

So...if everything goes just exactly right, these divers will be fine. What we see all the time though, is that when things do go wrong, they don't do very well. If it wasn't for the netwerk of resorts with good hand holding DM's and preplanned dives, so may of these divers would fresh meat.

 

[drbill]

Mike, agree on the relevance of swimming skills to do cave diving. However, I've never met a diver who got certified for cave diving before he or she did their OW. For the vast majority of divers, swimming skills are important (or should be).

I find it interesting that for the divers you refer to their "drive to survive" doesn't kick in. Heck, I know mine has on the few occasions where I needed it. I've got things to live for... like finally meeting that ultimate dive buddy with benefits!

 

[Divingdon]

I once had a huge american (150kg+) come to do an OWC. I made him do the swim test before I started anything else. He couldn't even swim 25 metres. Needless to say I was nice to him, and gave him some positive reinforcement, before going home to bed. I love those days when i can go back to bed....

 

[Gary D.]

We encourage this. We make training easier. Not by improving training methods but by just taking things out of training. ooops, all of a sudden, you just don't need to know it anymore. We'll certify those who aren't comfortable enough in the water, can't swim, are in lousy shape ect. They have absolutely no skills or abilities to draw on in a situation like this. They can't make up for lousy diving skills with stamina, determination and watermenship skills and they can't avoid the need for the survival skills by using their great diving skills because they don't have those either.

So...if everything goes just exactly right, these divers will be fine. What we see all the time though, is that when things do go wrong, they don't do very well. If it wasn't for the netwerk of resorts with good hand holding DM's and preplanned dives, so may of these divers would fresh meat.

:thumbs_up:

Gary D.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Part of the 1200 yard swim/kick/scuba test required for my OW course--

400-yard swim, starting off with a 25-yard underwater swim + 375 front crawl.

Without resting or hanging on the side, pull your skin diving gear in the water and kick/snorkel 400 yards, the first 25 of which is an underwater kick.

Again, without resting or hanging on the side, pull your scuba gear in the water and put it on. Kick 100-yards underwater on scuba without your mask on (eyes open), then clear your mask and put it on, kick another 100-yards underwater. Surface and kick 200 yards, breathing from your snorkel in full scuba gear.

Students must touch the side at each end of the pool but are not allowed to touch the top of the sides, as this constitutes hanging on the wall. At no point are the students allowed to hang on the sides, even while putting on skin/scuba gear. This of course means that all skin/scuba gear must be on the deck next to the pool so the students can easily pull it into the pool.