Should there be prerequisites for DM classes?

[DiveDiva_Ashley]

I have been diving for 4 or 5 years, mostly in zero viz quarries, rivers, and lakes because I live in Ohio. I knew from the beginning that one day, I'd be interested in becoming an instructor someday, but I felt that it was best for me to wait until I had more experience rather than rushing into it so I could be of more benefit to my students. I've been observing classes through my LDS for the last couple years just to watch how my instructor handled all sorts of different situations with his OWD students. Now, over 100 dives later, I finally feel like I'm ready to become a DM and would be able to offer my experience (ups and downs) to others that I teach. I let my LDS know I was interested and the owner was thrilled. We are now picking dates for classes and such and I found out that another diver whom I watched get certified just last year is planning on taking DM with me. He has 20-30 dives. I was really surprised because I could have sworn there was a 50 dive requirement for Rescue, which I thought was a prereq to DM, but when I researched it online could not find any such requirement. My question is this:
Do you think that there should be a "number of dives requirement" or some other form of test for potential divemaster students to ensure that recently certified divers are not taking the DM class and in turn, producing poorly-trained students? Or do you agree with the standards as they are now?

 

[Rick Murchison]

SSI Prerequisites for the Dive Control Specialist course are:
. •Be at least 18 years old.
. •Logged at least 40 open water dives.
. •Provide own scuba equipment of leadership quality.
. •Have a current medical exam for diving signed by a licensed medical practitioner.
. •Be certified at least at the Advanced Open Water level.
. •Have logged experience in Navigation, Night Diving, Deep Diving and Search and Recovery.
. •Complete a Diver Stress and Rescue course or equivalent.
--
In addition to the course required academics and in-water skills, the DiveCon candidate must complete a minimum 60 logged dives before designation.
Is that enough??? Well, as a DiveCon Instructor for a decade, I can tell you that for some it's precious plenty, while for others it's woefully inadequate. But that's what you get when you set "across-the-board" prerequisites for a highly diversified population. The art of "prerequisite specification" is a balance of "dues paid," "demonstrated ability" and "let's not hold the fire-eaters too far back."
The answer to your poll is, therefore, "It depends."

Rick

 

[MX727]

PADI's DM Prerequisites from their website:

• Prerequisites: PADI Advanced Open Water Diver (or qualifying certification from another training organization), PADI Rescue Diver (or qualifying certification from another training organization), 20 logged dives, 18 years old.
• Minimum Number of Logged Dives: 60 for certification as PADI Divemaster

You can start the course with 20 dives, but to finish and get your cert, you need 60 at the end.


From PADI's Rescue Diver Manual:

• Prerequisites: PADI Advanced Open Water Diver (or qualifying certification from another training organization), 20 logged dives, PADI Emegency First Response course (or other qualifying CPR/First Aid course).

 

[diver 85]

Things have slipped a bit---back in the late 90's it used to be either 125 or 150(can't remember which) when my son took his DM thru Sueno Del Mar on Roatan.......

 

[FireDiver443]

The pre-requisites for PADI's Divemaster program are available here: PADI Divemaster Course Details

I can't speak for every Instructor out there, but I know MY instructor wouldn't have accepted me as a DM Candidate if she didn't think I was ready for it. I'm not sure I believe that "20 logged dives", PADI's minimum requirement, is adequate experience to start DM training. What kinds of dives were they? Was it 20 dives at the same location, diving the same profile under the same conditions? Has the diver found him- or herself in a situation requiring problem solving under stress or multi-tasking? Looking at my dive log, I can say I wasn't ready at 20 dives, despite the fact that at that point I had shore & boat dives, fresh & salt water dives, drift dives, altitude dives, cold water dives and a shark rodeo. Heck, I'm not sure I was ready at 60 dives (PADIs requirement for DM certification), but I was closer (btw... I didn't start my DM until I was over 150 and I could argue the case that I STILL didn't have enough dives to be qualified).

I think it's important to remember, though, that DIVEMASTERS don't produce students...INSTRUCTORS do. DMs can and by all means SHOULD be encouraged to assist teaching students. In my experience, the best way to make sure you gain mastery of a subject is having to demonstrate and answer questions about it. Ideally, the relationship between an Instructor and DMC quickly evolves from "Teacher-Student" situation to more of a "Mentor-Protege." As I student, I was motivated to learn. As a DMC, I was motivated to earn trust & respect through hard work and listening.

Are folks accepted as DMCs who don't make it through? Probably. But should Instructors be granted the discretion to recognize a potential "diamond in the rough" and give them a shot? I say absolutely. DM wasn't an easy process. It was a lot of studying, a lot of physical preparation, a lot of work and, in some cases, receiving feedback and learning from it. I might be naive in this, but I think, when properly conducted, the process itself weeds out the folks that don't belong there.

Just my humble opinion. I could be wrong.

 

[RJP]

Do you think that there should be a "number of dives requirement" or some other form of test for potential divemaster students to ensure that recently certified divers are not taking the DM class and in turn, producing poorly-trained students?

A.) There already is a pre-requisite for number of dives
B.) No pre-requisite will ensure that someone is not "poorly trained"

You can have 1,000 dives and be a crappy diver, or have 50 dives and posses instructor quality skills. It's up to the DM's instructor to ensure that the DM candidate meets the standards to become a DM.

 

[NorthWoodsDiver]

There is a lot more than number of dives that should be required. Things like experience in all areas of diving (overhead- Ice, caves, wrecks, artificial and things like experience with scooters, nitrox, etc).

I personally dont believe someone with 20 or 50 or 200 ordinary open water dives is worth much as an instructor. In fact I know an instructor who has over a thousand dives under their belt all of which are ordinary shallow open water dives and he is a great teacher but a poor dive instructor because of his overall lack of skills and experience in anything but good viz and warm water. Seeing an instructor who still dives with his hands is rather discerning.

 

[Boxcar Overkill]

There is a lot more than number of dives that should be required. Things like experience in all areas of diving (overhead- Ice, caves, wrecks, artificial and things like experience with scooters, nitrox, etc).

Nah, so long as you know how to dive in the environment you are diving in, it's alright. That's my opinion anyway.

I know three DM's/instructors here in Palau who have never dived anywhere but the 83 degree temperatures of the clear tropic waters outside their front door. They've never dived in the ice, nor have they ever worn a dry suit.

But they each have over 15K divers here over the last 20 years. 2 of them are Palauan, the third moved here in 1990. They can read the currents, the weather, the tide - they know exactly when each dive spot will be hot and when it will be too dangerous. A turtle can't burp without them knowing when where it did it. They are all three excellent divers and excellent guides.

I can see no reason for them to be required to learn to dive in ice, caves, wrecks, or experience things like scooters before they could be a dive master. Or instructor. That's like saying someone should have experience driving race cars, semi's, and bulldozers before they could teach a high school driver's ed. class.

If you're going to teach someone how to dive in the cold, you should have cold water experience. But there's nothing so important about diving in the cold that people who are warm water divers need to experience it. Same way with cave's, wrecks, etc.

If your going to be a DM and guide dives, the most important experience you can have is local experience, in my opinion. It's the local knowledge that these guys have that makes them the best divers in the islands.

 

[alchemist117]

Boxcar, I think you've defined DM requirements spot on.

 

[DiveDiva_Ashley]

Ok It's important to note here that I'm talking about SDI/TDI DM requirements. Diver in this situation is 19 years old and has between 20 and 30 dives, almost all in the same environment and these (this and rescue) are his first classes since certification. I knew PADI had requirements and even SSI, but when I looked at SDI's website, I couldn't find a thing about any requirement to take the class. I don't know if that means they don't have them, they're not on the website, or I'm blind ;o) I hope that it's the latter, because it would be incredibly unsafe if there were no requirments at all other than basic OW.
Good posts- I have enjoyed reading everyone's p.o.v.'s on this- and I'm glad to know that most of you would be concerned at a relatively new diver getting into DM so soon. I don't contend that anyone is a perfect candidate for it because we could all benefit from more experience, but some are more prepared for it than others and since the standards aren't all that strict, it seems like it may not be that difficult to get certified one week, log a bunch of dives, and start DM the next if you really wanted to. That's crazy to me that someone would think they are ready so quickly- I wonder if they think they're invincible or lack respect for the tremendous amount of responsibility that comes along with moving towards pro. If I were a new OWD student selecting an facility, I would want to take this into consideration. If the instructor is certifying DM's just because they can regardless of if the student is truely ready, that's not really a good thing...