Shop loyalty to customers???

[MikeFerrara]

Kwesler,
What you may not realize is that if a store doesn’t carry a brand they can’t get authorized to service it. We would love to bring people in for service but we can only service the brands we sell. The online stores have prices we can’t touch and the manufacturers don’t help much either. They squeeze us from the other end. ScubaPro for instance has such a ridicules first time order and annual minimums we can’t go near it. Aqualung is the same but not as bad. I have negotiated with them extensively to no avail. We can’t get on as dealers and we can’t service their stuff. Then there are the brands that are big in mail order or online, we can’t compete with the online stores so it makes no sense to start with the line. Therefore we can’t service them either. Soon the online stores will be forced to provide those services also. Their prices will go up when they have to pay a technician. The little guys may get forced out. But it will not be due to attitude. And much of the complaints I read about the lds’s are not lds attitude but the result of what the manufacturers dictate. I would love to service your SP reg but I won’t because I can’t. Your criticisms should be directed toward the manufacturers along with the lds.

 

[kwesler]

on another thread I did specifically criticize the manufacturers for creating an impossible situation for the LDS...I have a local LDS who is an authorized SP dealer who services my regs, and the dive shop I dive with in the Keys is a SP dealer. I am aware of the requirements imposed on dealers by manufacturers. Again, my point is that many of us WANT to patronize the LDS, but have been turned off by hostility and poor customer service. Why would any of us CHOOSE to mail/internet order something we could get up the street? And AGAIN, I will emphasize that every single internet purchase I make is from an LDS-many of them small, who have developed an internet presence. Here is a quick true story...Scubatoys.com is a shop in Dallas Texas. I bought a backup light from them, and it arrived with a broken lens. I emailed them with the box on my desk. By the time I turned around after re-packaging the light, there was an email back apologizing and stating that the replacement was in the mail. When I asked if they needed the broken one back, they told me not to bother-they trusted me! I got the replacement in three days. Now that transaction took about a week or so-from my first order until I had the functioning replacement. Not nearly as convenient as the LDS. However, it was excellent customer service. Price was not the issue-I cannot even remember what the price was. Any Scubatoys IS an LDS-they are not an online only outfit.

Repeated statement-retailers have to compete on price, product and service. They have to be at least the same on 2/3 and better at one to survive. I am the CEO of a performing arts center-the third of three turnarounds I have had to engineer. All three times the companies were on the verge of failure because they forgot who the boss is...THE CUSTOMER!

 

[livestodive]

My best friend was going to take his ow cert with his brother. Being a civil employee the brother was unable to committ to the class times. The brother felt so bad that he was not able to take the class he paid for my friends ow cert. I went with him to an LDS I had never been in, as this is where he had paid for the cert.

Wow we went in and he had to get the book, tables, and log. He was charged (overly) for each piece. I had been looking at the gear available to him at this LDS and their prices. Way out of sight. When my friend was done signing up the shop employee informed him that they would give him a 25% off deal, for mask snorkel and fins for 250$. I didn't say anything just asked a couple of questions that needed to be asked so my friend would know what he needed for class.

When we got outside I told him that he should not purchase any of his gear there. Tonight I will take him to an LDS that will definately treat him more fairly. I would have told him to just get a gift certificate for the cost of the course but after seeing the prices put on the gear thought better of it and just let him sign up for the certification.

If I was an LDS owner I would start thinking of making some kind of alliance with other independant shop owners to try to stop these instances. Once a person gets beyond certification and realizes how he was treated unfairly, I don't believe any LDS will ever get them to think about being loyal. Other independant business have had to do the same thing or otherwise face what I see a few LDS's perpetuating out there. Who knows enough independant owners, and maybe the distributors might have to change their policies too.

my penny's worth

 

[MikeS]

Why don’t manufactures’ provide MSRP on their web pages? If this is to maintain pricing, I don’t think it’s going to work. If it’s intended to protect LDSs, I don’t think it’s going to work. I think it will result in more and more sales being lost to competitors that are willing to allow their products to be sold over the Internet.

Here is an example, I have a Parkway 3mm Wetsuit (purchased from LDS) and I love the fit. I’m looking for a 7mm semi-dry wetsuit. It would be great to compare the list price of various models i.e. Parkway T2 Series to Henderson Gold Core Simi-Dry. But the only information I can find online is prices for Henderson. As a result I’m a comparing apple to oranges (my LDS Parkway price to on-line Henderson prices).

I tried to think of another sport requiring a similar investment and came up with hang gliding. The web pages of hang glider manufactures I found would not sell direct but provided the MSRP and Distributor contact information. What’s so different about SCUBA?

From the little I know of the current situation I feel for LDS operators. They are caught between the manufactures’ and the consumers. Many manufactures’ seem to be stuck in an archaic protectionist mode where sales must subsidize service, volume guaranties are required, and there is no gauge for comparing pricing such as MSRP. Other manufactures’ allow their products to be sold on-line at prices that an LDS cannot compete with; hey a storefront cost money no matter what you’re selling. Most consumers want to spend their money as wisely as possible and there is more and more information available on the Internet.

I don't mind paying a premium to purchase an item at an LDS but in the spirit of fair mindedness I would like to know what that premium is. As it is now I feel like I’m in a no win situation, either I buy from my LDS and feel as though I paid more than I should, or I buy on-line and feel like a ‘heel” for not supporting the LDS.

 

[Bullfrog]

Before buying my backplate and wings, I called all of the LDSs to see what was available locally and at what cost. The response was unanimous: BP and wings would have to be ordered, and the prices were identical.

Comparing these prices to online sources, domestic and international, I found that I could save three hundred dollars on just the BP and wings. So, for roughly $300 I had my BP and wings.

One local LDS owner, after providing the price of the OMS non-retractable wing as $289, balked when I told him that everyone else in Vegas wanted $289 for the same item that I could purchase online for $175. When I asked him to cut me some slack in his prices, he told me to buy the wing for $175 because I wouldn't be getting a warranty.

So, I did.

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity, but to their self–love.... Every individual ... [who] ... employs capital ... and ... labours ... neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it ... he is ... led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention.... By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society." Smith, Adam. The Wealth of Nations (1965: 14, 423).

 

[MikeFerrara]

Bullfrog,
How much do you think the lds should have lowered his price?
If he was asking 289, what do you think he had in the item?

I can tell you that with Halcyon the mark-up is less than the price diff you mentioned. I had a person call me and ask me to match a Diveinn price on a reg that was less than what I payed for it. I didn't deal. The thing is this, If I don't make money working, why work? The manufacturer still makes their money. I invest my time and money. If you have a problem or question after the sale the customer comes to me. I do more work and spend more money. Financially I will do better to destroy and write-off some of the stuff I am holding than to sell at reduced prices. And if not better, at least I get the satisfaction of not promoting that manufacturers product.

Consumers should seek the best value. Retailers and manufacturers should seek the best profit. But some retailers and manufacturers are only concerned with todays numbers. This is not always the best for the long term.

 

[sea nmf]

During these discussions, I keep seeing over and over that the online distributors can sell for less that what the LDS cost is.

My question is this: Why do you put up with it???? Where do these online stores get the merchandise? Isn't there some way the LDS can level the playing field, perhaps using collective bargaining power with the manufacturers?

I hear that the online merchandise is "gray market". Can you define that in the context of this discussion? If it is excess inventory, why don't the LDS operations get in on the action?

The two largest LDS in my area (Puget Sound) have what they call a dive fair each year. They discount most merchandise quite a bit and I usually wait until then to purchase any gear I need. The manufacturers attend and support this "fair". Even though the prices are discounted, they don't come close to the online prices.

Anyway, I'm just curious on why the manufacturers don't support the LDS more than they do in price.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Grey market means that they are not authorized dealers and do not purchase the product from the manufacturer or distributor. As apposed to black market wich suggests that it is illegal. Where do they get the stuff? I don't know. I wish I did. I as a single lds have tried to nagotiate with some manufacturers. Maybe we could do more as a group but we are not as of yet a group. From the manufacturers mouth, they don't care about the lds, only money. Some openly admit to not wanting to deal with the little guy anyway.

 

[svs3]

This is a debate I've followed off and on for a while now. The point/question/concern I keep coming back to in my own mind is this: What about the other support functions (i.e. instruction and instructional facilities, rental gear, air fills, etc.) an LDS provides? These services are as needed as regs and fins. Are we heading into a world of $600 OW courses, since instruction will no longer be available as a lost leader, and home based air and nitrox fills because industrial gas suppliers won't bother with filling a silly little AL80?

Scuba diving requires a much boarder network of support services that most sports and in the current environment the LDS is the central point of distribution. I believe that the current situation faced by the LDSs is untenable at best and that unless this situation changes in some way we will begin to see a large number of LDSs going out of bussiness in the near future. If some alternate model (sans LDSs) to distribute these needed services and products to divers is not developed, who knows what the future holds.

Am I over stating the case? Maybe I'm way out in left field on this one (this wouldn't be the first time). I don't know. Obviously I am not in scuba industry or an economist.

Sam

 

[MNScuba]

Local dive shops will always be around, though they might be modified versions. The way I see it, they will probably continue to get smaller, offer less product and increase prices of air, services and classes. Over the long-haul, it will all work itself out. My opinion on this issue changed 180 degrees since I bought my first item. I used to believe you should buy everything from your LDS, now I don't. If you have to/want to try it on, buy it at your LDS... otherwise it's an open market. If I have to pay $10/fill someday instead of $5/fill, so be it. They will never turn away my business to service my gear, though they might charge me more. On one item alone I saved over $100, had I bought everything online I could have saved over $1000... that's a lot of air fills and service. For the price, I can almost get two of everything anyway.

On the other hand...
Local dive shops are an excellent source of local information, new divers and service. There are way too many divers for a quality LDS go out of business. Perhaps some income will be from corporations or sponsorships... just like web sites have banner ads.

Only the future will tell, but I'm not going to worry about it.I don't feel bad about anything I bought whether at the LDS or online. I won't steer anyone away from either... they both have they're places and they both offer quality as long as you do your research on the company first.