Shark attack, Egypt, Brothers islands

[Scuba-74]

Diver2: his diving skills are not entirely suitable for the dive, has escalated the situation unintentionally
Operator: is guilty of getting the unsuitable diver into the water and not attending him properly thereafter

Could you elaborate on what you mean by that? First of all, who's Diver2 - is it the diver wearing shorty? Then, most importantly - what's your definition of "unsuitable diver", how and when the suitability is determined, what the diver did in the video to be labeled "unsuitable", and finally, who has the authority to deny a certified diver (and a paying customer) a dive?

EDIT: I looked at the video again - diver in shorty maintains neutral buoyancy quite well, doesn't bolt for the surface or do any of the other crazy stuff like that, maintains visual contact with the shark at all times. He doesn't look like a novice diver to me, and I can guarantee he would perform well at any checkout dive. I think he can be excused for not doing perfect 3-dimensional rolls with modified frog kicks and zero movement of the arms. Heck, I may very well be this guy next time. And if there is some super-authority (the proverbial dive police?) that is able to deny people dives, I sure would like to know beforehand.

 

[InTheDrink]

Two more attacks last week. Don’t have any proper details yet.

 

[divinh]

Wow, are attentions spans that bad nowadays where you can't even pay attention to a dive briefing? jeezus. If you know it's important, pay attention. It's not that difficult. Should the DM hold your hand during the dive too?

I think the request is to publish a "general practices" with Oceanic White's. Not everyone will have this "general" knowledge, nor will be briefed if the dive isn't about seeing OW and the encounter is unexpected.

(On my Komodo liveaboard, you would think that chasing turtles, tapping their shells with reef hooks, dragging reef hooks through coral, etc. would be general knowledge and that it would not need to be briefed, but that wasn't the case. I wished they had published something that /all/ divers would have to agree to before booking the trip.)

 

[drrich2]

Wow, are attentions spans that bad nowadays where you can't even pay attention to a dive briefing?

And if they are? For some people, it's a lot to take in, and not everyone retains a good working knowledge of the details from a briefing.

Depending on the dive briefing in question, a lot can be going on. With weather concerns, dive sites may not be chosen till day of, boat engines may be loud enough to make hearing during transit difficult so it starts when everyone's standing around waiting to splash, sometimes there's an instabuddy to deal with, there's likely to be a discussion of the underwater topography and planned route of the dive, what might be seen, perhaps locations where particular animals are known to reside, mention of whether current may come into play and how to handle 'what-if' scenarios such as popping up farther from the boat than desired. Now on top of all that throw in a detailed discussion about how to react to oceanic white-tips and different ways the shark might act, both out in the water and when you're ready to exit but the shark's circling the boat...and you.

Some of what's easy for you isn't for everyone. Not everyone learns well the same way. Some learn fine from oral presentation, some need pictures, some benefit from private study. With a bunch of divers geared up and ready to splash, one or two 'slow learners' aren't going to keep raising their hands asking for repeats and clarifications. Doesn't matter whether they should or not; human nature often carries the day over ideology. Some people you can tell how to drive somewhere via a few turns and arrive at a destination, and some need GPS or a detailed map they can consult as they go, not just look at in advance. Even if they paid attention & heard the info., that doesn't mean they're going to remember the details 40 minutes into a dive.

If you've got a pretty universal game plan for a likely-to-be-encountered dangerous predator needing special attention, it could be beneficial to have that available for advance review.

You can see what I'm talking about in many classrooms. The teacher clearly explains the lesson, step by step (under much better conditions than some dive boat situations); the kids not only listen but take notes, and study the material later to do well on the test. If failing a test means getting a chunk torn out of you by a shark...

Richard.

 

[Scuba-74]

And if they are? For some people, it's a lot to take in, and not everyone retains a good working knowledge of the details from a briefing.

Depending on the dive briefing in question, a lot can be going on. With weather concerns, dive sites may not be chosen till day of, boat engines may be loud enough to make hearing during transit difficult so it starts when everyone's standing around waiting to splash, sometimes there's an instabuddy to deal with, there's likely to be a discussion of the underwater topography and planned route of the dive, what might be seen, perhaps locations where particular animals are known to reside, mention of whether current may come into play and how to handle 'what-if' scenarios such as popping up farther from the boat than desired. Now on top of all that throw in a detailed discussion about how to react to oceanic white-tips and different ways the shark might act, both out in the water and when you're ready to exit but the shark's circling the boat...and you.

Some of what's easy for you isn't for everyone. Not everyone learns well the same way. Some learn fine from oral presentation, some need pictures, some benefit from private study. With a bunch of divers geared up and ready to splash, one or two 'slow learners' aren't going to keep raising their hands asking for repeats and clarifications. Doesn't matter whether they should or not; human nature often carries the day over ideology. Some people you can tell how to drive somewhere via a few turns and arrive at a destination, and some need GPS or a detailed map they can consult as they go, not just look at in advance. Even if they paid attention & heard the info., that doesn't mean they're going to remember the details 40 minutes into a dive.

If you've got a pretty universal game plan for a likely-to-be-encountered dangerous predator needing special attention, it could be beneficial to have that available for advance review.

You can see what I'm talking about in many classrooms. The teacher clearly explains the lesson, step by step (under much better conditions than some dive boat situations); the kids not only listen but take notes, and study the material later to do well on the test. If failing a test means getting a chunk torn out of you by a shark...

Richard.

On top of that, dive briefings are often delivered in a language that neither presenter nor the audience are fluent in.

 

[Scott from LongIsland]

And if they are? For some people, it's a lot to take in, and not everyone retains a good working knowledge of the details from a briefing.

Depending on the dive briefing in question, a lot can be going on. With weather concerns, dive sites may not be chosen till day of, boat engines may be loud enough to make hearing during transit difficult so it starts when everyone's standing around waiting to splash, sometimes there's an instabuddy to deal with, there's likely to be a discussion of the underwater topography and planned route of the dive, what might be seen, perhaps locations where particular animals are known to reside, mention of whether current may come into play and how to handle 'what-if' scenarios such as popping up farther from the boat than desired. Now on top of all that throw in a detailed discussion about how to react to oceanic white-tips and different ways the shark might act, both out in the water and when you're ready to exit but the shark's circling the boat...and you.

Some of what's easy for you isn't for everyone. Not everyone learns well the same way. Some learn fine from oral presentation, some need pictures, some benefit from private study. With a bunch of divers geared up and ready to splash, one or two 'slow learners' aren't going to keep raising their hands asking for repeats and clarifications. Doesn't matter whether they should or not; human nature often carries the day over ideology. Some people you can tell how to drive somewhere via a few turns and arrive at a destination, and some need GPS or a detailed map they can consult as they go, not just look at in advance. Even if they paid attention & heard the info., that doesn't mean they're going to remember the details 40 minutes into a dive.

If you've got a pretty universal game plan for a likely-to-be-encountered dangerous predator needing special attention, it could be beneficial to have that available for advance review.

You can see what I'm talking about in many classrooms. The teacher clearly explains the lesson, step by step (under much better conditions than some dive boat situations); the kids not only listen but take notes, and study the material later to do well on the test. If failing a test means getting a chunk torn out of you by a shark...

Richard.

Well, I would venture to say that those folks that have such minimal retention probably shouldn't be diving in this situation or maybe not at all.

If your life depends on it pay attention. If your life depends on it, ask questions. Those are lame excuses to just forego self preservation and put it in someone else's hands or that of a few paragraphs or pictures on a website. What are you asking for something like a what to do if choking type of chart?

These aren't children in a classroom being forced to learn. These are grown adults that are choosing to take mitigated risks. If you go so far to choose to do this then pay attention at the damn briefing sharks or no sharks. You put some minimal list of behavior of what to do when encountering OWT and these same people who can't pay attention will just think those are the only things they should do and they are all set. Oh, just stay vertical and face them and i'm all good! Sorry but it if you have read anything in this thread you will see that it's not that clear and simple. It doesn't work like that.

As for dragging reef hooks and chasing turtles which is an entirely separate conversation...that behavior is addressed during certification an clearly it is still disregarded by MANY folks. A little note on a website is not going to stop that behavior. I have confronted people verbally when i see poor behavior on a reef and it still does nothing. People do what they want to do. It's quite hard to teach respect

Dumbing things down as you suggest will do the reverse and make people think that they are fine if they do a few certain things. This isn't Disney World where keeping your arms in the coaster will make all okay. I am from the US...if a liveaboard did something like this and a diver still got bit, they would surely sue. "But they told me i would be okay if I did X,Y,Z. WTF?"

 

[scubaozy]

Yes, I was meaning the diver in shorty. This dive site is in a very remote location and operators do request qualification and minimum number of dives for the trip. Captain and the guide is responsible for the safety of all, so they can deny you to dive if they must. Check dive is not a pass or fail, the guide will asses your skill level. If they feel you are not confident, they will help you improve your skills and keep an eye on you.

I do agree that he would do fine on this dive site if there was no sharks but for diving with owt, your buoyancy must be spot on at all times without moving hands around to change direction. There is another diver with shorty closer to the camera, he stayed calm and took a defensive position with his fins without moving them an inch (I find his defense very good) and owt left him alone and went back after diver2, because diver2 still emitted too many signals to sharks sensors.

Dive industry in Egypt is very well developed due high expectations of European customers and there are many itineraries that will suit any skill level.

 

[Shasta_man]

Aside from whether people will actually follow directions, if such sharks (OWT) are expected to be encountered frequently, I'd suggest that "how to deal with sharks" is not a dive briefing thing but a general briefing they should give on the boat on the first night or whatever. Given at the right time, you will probably get more attention and more questions could be asked and in more depth.

 

[Scott from LongIsland]

Aside from whether people will actually follow directions, if such sharks (OWT) are expected to be encountered frequently, I'd suggest that "how to deal with sharks" is not a dive briefing thing but a general briefing they should give on the boat on the first night or whatever. Given at the right time, you will probably get more attention and more questions could be asked and in more depth.

and that is exactly how it happened the two times that I was on a liveaboard in the area. Most people that go to that area go specifically to see the hammerheads and/or OWT. Babying people doesn't help anyone

 

[InTheDrink]

Seems like some other stuff has happened at small brother. I retract earlier statements. I think it’s getting dangerous now.