Serious concerns in Belize

[islanddream]

We will be in Belize in 5 weeks, also to dive. I do so much research before booking. Trip Advisor is a great place to ask around about anything from hotels, dive ops, and things to do. There is nothing more trust worthy than looking up reviews people have written about the things you want to do and the places you want to go and which people to trust to take you there. We will be diving with Reef Adventures. I read pages and pages of great reviews from people who have gone diving with this operator. I have read that depth limitations are an issue with most dive ops regardless of the certification levels of the divers. It's a business to them. Read up on some reviews and that should guide you and your daughter in the right direction.

We just returned from Ambergris Caye on Saturday (our first time to Belize) and dived with Reef Adventures. Ched, Ruben, and Chuckie are really great people and their biggest concern is safety, IMO. We had Ruben (DM) most of the dives and he was great about pointing out critters, doing air checks, and seemed to keep everyone above 85 feet. I would highly recommend Reef Adventures.

We chose not to do the Blue Hole on this trip because we had prepaid for our five days of dives and the first day we were to dive (Sunday) ended up being stormy and no boats were going out. So we dove Mon-Fri so we didn't lose the $$$ that we prepaid. We checked on diving the BH and the atolls that you get to go to (it's a 3-dive day out there) and it was going to cost each of us around $360. This included continental breakfast, the trip out to the BH and the park fee, the three dives, taxes, and the trip back to AC. We would have been going with Amigos-del-Mar. To go on the dive, you need to be at the boat dock at 5:30 AM and they leave around 6 PM. We did talk to one of the ladies that did take the trip and see loved it. She did enjoy diving the BH but loved the wall dives the most. We decided if we go back to Belize we'll stay out at Turneffe Island so we are close to the walls and have access to diving we didn't have around AC.

 

[Thiad]

I was one of the very un-ready divers that did dive this after my OW (as did two others in the group they threw together). Was it worth it? No. Did I know what I was doing? No. Should I have said no? Absolutely. I still consider this one of the worst mistakes I've ever made diving. While I went down with a DM - just him and I while the rest of the group went off on their own, we should still have stayed to the OW standards. It's just not worth it for what you see.

There are far better places to dive. The other dives in the area are simply stunning, however.

 

[Damselfish]

People who are reasonably qualified to do this dive will debate forever whether this dive is worth doing even once, and what the definition of "qualified" is. For someone clearly unqualified, like a young inexperienced diver, I think it makes no sense at all.

What I don't understand is, why many (most?) ops seem to insist on everyone going all the way down if they do it at all, when some people would prefer the safer choice of going part way to get a bit of the experience, or even doing a shallow dive around the rim. I get the sense they consider it safer to keep everyone together, don't have enough DMs to split people up, and don't trust what some folks will do here if left to their own devices, but I think it's stupid.

FWIW, I've had 3 opportunities to do the BH from liveaboards. Did it the first time since I was there, even though I wasn't all that interested. Relaxed on deck the second time - some folks snorkeled nearby which they said was pretty nice. 3rd time the whole boat voted against bothering with it at all.

 

[ToddMLewis]

There are some great dive operations in Belize. If you dont feel confortable with this one (I surely would not) get with another one. there is also no shortage of dove operations there.
As for Jacked up dives.....I wont mention the operation....but it was in Cancun. The DM ask if it was ok of he brought a group of Discover Scuba divers out with us. Me and my wife did not have a problem with it. Se were about 1/2 way through the dive and om not really paying that much attention to the Discover class (Im taking pictures on the reef). Up until the point I check my console for air left and notice were at 90feet. I start shooting pics again and the truth of the situation comes into my head..... Maby I should give up on the shots and watch the potential issues at this point. Fourtunatly everyone surfaced no worse for wear. But it was a bit concerning.
So yes there are operators all over the world who will cut corners to make a buck. Ask around for recomendations is my advice

 

[Mike]

What I don't understand is, why many (most?) ops seem to insist on everyone going all the way down if they do it at all, when some people would prefer the safer choice of going part way to get a bit of the experience, or even doing a shallow dive around the rim. I get the sense they consider it safer to keep everyone together, don't have enough DMs to split people up,

Ding, ding ding... except it's "won't supply enough DMs to split the group up."

 

[peterbj7]

Although people may think the BH day trip is a cash cow, and the operator must really be making a mint at the prices that are charged, I'm afraid the truth of the matter is quite different. Prices have gone up considerably in the last couple of years, but that's simply because costs have risen massively. No dive operation in Belize makes "lots of money" and all too many run at a loss. Adding an extra couple of divemasters to permit a shallower group in the BH is totally uneconomic. As to the OP, I imagine their trip has already happened and I didn't hear from them, so I presume they didn't want their daughter to make a shallower dive. I offered my services - I didn't say that they would be free, as I wanted to see what they would decide first. So be it.

As to checking your air pressure and "noticing" that you're at 90 feet, I do hope that Todd from Georgia realises his error. I said above that diving is a solitary activity, and I meant it. When you're at depth you are your own life support system and cannot rely on anyone else to bail you out of a situation you've put yourself in. If there are other people around who can help you that's a bonus. If you run out of air at 90 feet you're likely to have an unpleasant chamber ride at the very minimum. This is the sort of remark that confirms my strong feeling that diving has been made too easy and approachable, so that many people who indulge in it are woefully undertrained and unprepared for what may happen.

Applying this to the BH, there's no doubt that many people who go on that dive shouldn't, not without proper build-up training. But as I also said above, this costs money and most people don't want to pay. They probably choose their dive centre on price rather than quality anyway. That was my experience running a highly professional operation that necessarily had high costs that necessitated relatively high charges. As they say in Yorkshire, you don't get ought for nought.

 

[OCDiver59]

Be careful choosing a dive shop in Belize. This is a third world country and they do not have the same saftey mentality that you find in the US. Last July I found the Ecologic Divers shop via good reviews on the internet. However, my experience did not track with all thier online reviews (the owner is a self proclamed computer expert so maybe that is a factor). Every dive trip that we had with Ecologic Diversincluded an unnecessary mishap that put divers at risk of injury and death. On one dive, the dive master did a rear entryright onto the head of another diver that was not clear of the boat. That diver had to go to shore for medicalattention. On another dive, the crewturned off the air (thinking that they were turning it on) to a female diverbefore she entered the water. On anothertrip, they pushed the boat too hard through rough seas and injured a diver onthe deck. The worst and most dangerousthing they did was during a trip to the Blue Hole on their open boat, when ratherthan turning back, they decided to continue through heavy seas and drivedirectly into a massive thunder storm. Abouthalf way into the trip to the Blue Hole they drove the boat into a black wallof driving rain and lighting which lasted for about an hour. It was so scary that most of the divers startedputting on their wetsuits in case they ended up in the water. When we finally dove the Blue Hole I foundthat the depth gauge provide by the shop did not work past 80 feet. Good thing I had a dive computer or that wouldhave terminated my dive. If you valueyour health and safety then I would suggest doing your research and finding amore safety oriented dive shop in Belize, which is what we ultimately did. We found Amigos Del Mar which has biggerboats, more staff and a much more experienced operation. It might be important to note, that theowners of Ecologic, Easton & Sue Beymer, are retirees from Boulder City,Nevada who do not even live in Belize full time (see Ecologic’s website) whichcould explain why the shop did to meet my expectations for safe diving practices.

 

[themagni]

My family and I are going to Belize in a few days... Here's my concern/warning: I've been in contact with a dive company down there, and I asked about diving the Blue Hole.

Unfortunately, we were told that the dive is 130 ft. and that everyone is required to dive to that depth to stay with the DMs. At this point, I told my daughter that we would have to give up on the idea of a Blue Hole dive because of her depth limitations. Here's where it gets really, really scary: the dive company wrote back to my saying that my daughter could, in fact, dive the Blue Hole.

I'm going to be honest here. I am 35 years old, in pretty good shape, and have my AOW with "Deep" specialty (FWIW). I've got nearly 100 dives in reasonably cold water, rarely led by a DM, and I'm pretty good on air. (I'll also be bringing along my own equipment except tanks, weights, and suit.) I'm going to Belize in 32 days, and the BH dive is the one that worries me.

Seriously, I have three major concerns with the dive plan:
150-160 feet?
Using AL80?
With air?

The tables only go to 100 feet, the 130 is there in case you pooch up your dive, and my computer tells me to knock it off when I get to 150 feet (which I've only done in my living room)

TS was talking about a good guideline being "don't go deeper than your tank size". I would rent a steel 120 if I was doing this dive, I've got no issues with the extra weight. Still that seems a little light, especially if someone else notices "hey that guy has big tank mine empty grab".

And compressed air, shouldn't this be getting into enriched air, or even a He mix at this point? Aren't we facing a deco obligation, and if so, where are the redundant air supplies, surface support, and other things that I have no idea about because I'm not a freakin' tech diver?

Don't get me wrong, I really want to do this dive, but I have some serious concerns with how it'll be handled. I don't mind playing against statistical odds when I'm buying a lotto ticket, but I'm putting my Rig on the line here. It feels to me like it's the diving equivalent of biking in traffic, no helmet, dark clothes/no lights, at night, after a couple of beers.

 

[flareside]

I find it kind of interesting that this thread which is based on kind of a "what if" scenario is all doom and gloom whereas if you read the threads where people have actually died in the BH they are more upbeat as to how safe the dive actually is. (ref: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/326776-death-blue-hole-belize.html and http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/422650-death-blue-hole.html) The three death reports which have occurred in the BH since 2000 that I was able to track down on the internet were all based on other health issues and not BH diving.

The dive profiles in these threads all read generally about the same. 2-3 minutes at depth (140' +/-) weaving around the formation, a couple of safety stops on the way up, and back on the boat with 1100 psi left in an AL80, all within safe limits. And I found this to be the case when I did roughly the same profile, not once but twice on the same day with an hour and fifteen surface interval. Not a single computer within the group chirped a single warning and knowing how conservative my wife's is, if this was even remotely pushing the limits it would have said something.

The keys to safety on this dive involve having a good DM, very small groups so the dive doesn't get drug out timewise, and continually checking your buddy as you near depth to make sure they are not going loopy from narcosis. The other three people in my group had less than 25 dives each but none of them had a problem as they were all to the point of being comfortable in the water. While I am a firm believer that "fearlessness is foolishness" when it comes to diving, I found nothing to worry about on this dive. The only real danger I could foresee (other than waking up a previously unknown medical condition) is largely mental and this is not the kind of dive for those who are uncomfortable in the water or tend to lose composure as there is no easy way out once committed.

Overall, looking at this dive and assuming roughly 40 divers per day are doing it, that amounts to around 175,000 divers over the last 12 years and of all those divers, three have died of heart attacks or other unrelated causes. That's a pretty good safety record. And unless you enter the blue hole from a liveaboard type situation where you have been doing 5 dives a day for a number of preceeding days to where you already have significant nitrogen buildup, the proper profiles on this dive don't provide any indication that you are in any danger of coming away bent. If anyone has any statistics showing anything to the contrary however, please do bring it forth. In the end, safety is always THE most important part of diving.

 

[peterbj7]

I'm going to be honest here. I am 35 years old, in pretty good shape, and have my AOW with "Deep" specialty (FWIW). I've got nearly 100 dives in reasonably cold water, rarely led by a DM, and I'm pretty good on air. (I'll also be bringing along my own equipment except tanks, weights, and suit.) I'm going to Belize in 32 days, and the BH dive is the one that worries me.

Seriously, I have three major concerns with the dive plan:
150-160 feet?
Using AL80?
With air?

The tables only go to 100 feet, the 130 is there in case you pooch up your dive, and my computer tells me to knock it off when I get to 150 feet (which I've only done in my living room)

TS was talking about a good guideline being "don't go deeper than your tank size". I would rent a steel 120 if I was doing this dive, I've got no issues with the extra weight. Still that seems a little light, especially if someone else notices "hey that guy has big tank mine empty grab".

And compressed air, shouldn't this be getting into enriched air, or even a He mix at this point? Aren't we facing a deco obligation, and if so, where are the redundant air supplies, surface support, and other things that I have no idea about because I'm not a freakin' tech diver?

Don't get me wrong, I really want to do this dive, but I have some serious concerns with how it'll be handled. I don't mind playing against statistical odds when I'm buying a lotto ticket, but I'm putting my Rig on the line here. It feels to me like it's the diving equivalent of biking in traffic, no helmet, dark clothes/no lights, at night, after a couple of beers.

The dive won't be to 150ft. That's the depth of the shelf, and you'll only pass that if you're going down further... You can perfectly respectably stop at 130ft.

Unless you're accustomed to diving a heavy steel tank I wouldn't use one for this dive (even supposing you could find one). It's MUCH heaver than an Al80 and that would probably give you buoyancy issues at depth. Use equipment you're familiar with.

Although an He mix might be appropriate (and mandatory for some divers) Nitrox ("enriched air") most certainly is not. I take it you're not nitrox certified? I strongly recommend you rectify that. Then you'll find that nitrox is a gas for prolonging shallow (ish) dives, not for going deeper. Speaking for myself (I know TS disagrees with this) I feel no need to use He at that depth, nor indeed for some way deeper. I have made countless deeper technical dives using helium including to the bottom of the BH, and I have taken students to more than double that depth. If you haven't dived to anywhere approaching that depth I strongly recommend some warm-up dives on the Barrier Reef beforehand, as it is far more user-friendly with a bottom just below you at all times.

My principal concern with the way the dive is conducted is that it is not customary for a spare tank to be taken down to depth. Quite often I do take an extra 80, clipped on so it can easily be handed off, and that seems to me to be a sensible precaution (remembering that I dive as a staff member). On one occasion (only) my tank nearly ran dry when I had a very nervous diver on my octopus. Even so it didn't run dry and I've never heard of a staff member actually running out of air on the dive, even when sharing with a gas guzzler. There are always spare tanks suspended below the boat at around 15ft.

You said you have a Deep specialty "for what it's worth". Do you feel that gave you very little? As written by PADI I think it has very limited value as it only contains one dive to maximum depth (and even that can be to only just over 100ft), but I do it over a week with four dives to the maximum allowed depth (plus whatever warm up dives are necessary) and I feel that gives a much better introduction to this sort of diving.