Seeking Input on Low Air - No Air Situation

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

First, gas management was included in my OW training. That is not to say that it was complete, but it did give me an idea of how to know when it was time to start thinking about ending the dive. Whether this was curriculum or not I have no idea.

BUT if it is not, I can't blame the DM for not managing the gas of the divers in his/her charge.

Why not? If the DM is going to ask for tank pressures, a reasonable person would assume that it's for the purpose of determining when to turn the dive.

That said, even the most general knowledge of how depth, pressure and exertion relate to gas consumption should be enough for a diver to have an idea when it's time to be heading "up".

However I'm not sure that a lack of knowledge is really the problem.

All the OOAs I've seen have been with divers who:

  • Simply ignored their SPG/computer and had no idea what was left, or
  • Knew it was time to go, but stayed down because they were "following the DM" or their buddy or whoever.
None was because of a lack of gas management knowlege. It was always from "oblivious of remaining gas and time" or "too eager to follow the leader"

I have to blame the instructor for not including some sort of introduction at least in their classes, after all the instructor is supposed to be more of a leader, more of a professional than a DM is. I have to look at the agencies as if the boards that write the standards are all smoking crack. GM is, or at least should be one of the most basic things every diver knows.
Gas management would be nice, and should be taught at least minimally in OW class, however a much more valuable skill is knowing that when it's "time to go" you take your buddy and leave, regardless of the DM or instructor.

Having a good "Bozo alert" is at least as valuable as being able to calculate a SAC rate and turning point.

flots.
 
Some good points flots. IME Caribbean DM's rarely manage the dive, but rather lead the way, holdthe float and and point out critters. I am sure some are more hands on, but most act like I would expect a local diver leading an out of town friend to act.

With this in mind maybe it would be a smart idea to let OW students know that when to end the dive is going to be their decision, so they know what to expect even if a "Dive Master" is present.

The very vast majority of adults should be able to take care of themselves with even a rudimentary idea of what is going on, but we hear all the time of adults who hand off their lives to complete strangers and follow along even if they know what they are doing is dangerous.

I don't get it. I feel like I am talking myself out of my own argument.

Maybe I should moderate my language. Obviously there is a problem, I think most of it lies somewhere other than the agency and instructor and dive master. It lies with people who are in increasing numbers avoiding responsibility for themselves.

It would be nice if today's dive pros would compensate for this lack of...I don't know the best word to describe what I am thinking, but too be honest at this moment I am not sure that more education is the answer. People seem to automatically look to some authority figure to protect them from XYZ, rather than take steps to safeguard themselves, and I don't think I like where that trend is heading.
 
Some good points flots. IME Caribbean DM's rarely manage the dive, but rather lead the way, holdthe float and and point out critters. I am sure some are more hands on, but most act like I would expect a local diver leading an out of town friend to act.

With this in mind maybe it would be a smart idea to let OW students know that when to end the dive is going to be their decision, so they know what to expect even if a "Dive Master" is present.

The very vast majority of adults should be able to take care of themselves with even a rudimentary idea of what is going on, but we hear all the time of adults who hand off their lives to complete strangers and follow along even if they know what they are doing is dangerous.

I don't get it. I feel like I am talking myself out of my own argument.

Maybe I should moderate my language. Obviously there is a problem, I think most of it lies somewhere other than the agency and instructor and dive master. It lies with people who are in increasing numbers avoiding responsibility for themselves.

It would be nice if today's dive pros would compensate for this lack of...I don't know the best word to describe what I am thinking, but too be honest at this moment I am not sure that more education is the answer. People seem to automatically look to some authority figure to protect them from XYZ, rather than take steps to safeguard themselves, and I don't think I like where that trend is heading.

I think the concept is more complicated than this to begin with, but I also believe there is a descending spiral after the students has completed a class.

First of all, I have done a lot of Caribbean diving in a lot of different sites, and I would say that in most cases in my experience the DMs really do control the dives. They monitor gas supplies for the group and make decisions appropriately. In some (like Bonaire) a DM was put in the water for anyone who wanted to take advantage of that service, with most divers paying no attention. In most cases in my experience, though, the DM monitored group gas supplies, kept the group together, and made sure they were together on the surface. I suspect many divers have never experienced anything other than this.

This brings us to the spiral of which I spoke. In my last two classroom sessions for OW instruction, while I was talking about dive planning, students have told me that they had been told by friends before the class that "in the real world" dive planning is not necessary because the DM does all that for you. Obviously the people who told them that had never experienced anything different. In time they had grown dependent upon a DM's dive planning decisions and lost whatever planning skills they had learned in their OW classes. (That is the descending spiral.)

In the case of the dive in this thread, I would like to repeat what I said earlier. It was not a typical dive, and the DM had a crucial role in dive planning. They descended on a line in current, a line that was attached to the boat. It is critical that the importance of this be understood. I just finished a month of wreck diving in South Florida, and we divers had a number of discussions on the boat prior to each dive about how we wanted to do our descents and ascents: with a fixed line or with a live boat. Your entire group has to do it the same way! If someone is going to do a drifting ascent in current, the boat has to be able to monitor the ascent and follow it, so it can't be fixed. If the boat is fixed with people going up the line, it can't follow the drifters.

In this case, the divers could not do a direct ascent to the surface, because they would have been drifting in current as they ascended. Not only was the boat fixed to the wreck and unable to follow them, they did not have a DSMB, an essential tool for a drifting ascent. The boat crew would have no idea they were ascending off the line and would not be looking for them. The crew would have no ability to follow their drift during a safety stop without a marker. Only when everyone else had ascended on the ascent line would they learn that someone else had come up off the line and start looking for them on the surface somewhere.

So, unless the current was much less than I have been led to believe, they had to come up that line, so they had to return to it before beginning the ascent. They have not had that kind of planning in their previous training, so they were indeed dependent upon the DM to make a good decision. That is why the DM needed to turn the dive when they signaled their air situation to them.
 
John, although I am generally vocal on personal responsibility, you have a very good point here. Dives that require true "thirds" planning verge on not being recreational dives, and they are certainly not beginner dives. The BEST answer is that the divers themselves recognize that the dive is beyond their experience and training; second best would be that the dive guide carefully questions the guests and HE makes that determination. It is a very poor third option to enter into a dive for which you don't have the tools, and depend on a dive guide to make critical decisions for you.
 
John, although I am generally vocal on personal responsibility, you have a very good point here. Dives that require true "thirds" planning verge on not being recreational dives, and they are certainly not beginner dives. The BEST answer is that the divers themselves recognize that the dive is beyond their experience and training; second best would be that the dive guide carefully questions the guests and HE makes that determination. It is a very poor third option to enter into a dive for which you don't have the tools, and depend on a dive guide to make critical decisions for you.

I fully agree.
 
Some good points flots. IME Caribbean DM's rarely manage the dive, but rather lead the way, holdthe float and and point out critters. I am sure some are more hands on, but most act like I would expect a local diver leading an out of town friend to act.

With this in mind maybe it would be a smart idea to let OW students know that when to end the dive is going to be their decision, so they know what to expect even if a "Dive Master" is present.

The very vast majority of adults should be able to take care of themselves with even a rudimentary idea of what is going on, but we hear all the time of adults who hand off their lives to complete strangers and follow along even if they know what they are doing is dangerous.

I don't get it. I feel like I am talking myself out of my own argument.

Maybe I should moderate my language. Obviously there is a problem, I think most of it lies somewhere other than the agency and instructor and dive master. It lies with people who are in increasing numbers avoiding responsibility for themselves.

It would be nice if today's dive pros would compensate for this lack of...I don't know the best word to describe what I am thinking, but too be honest at this moment I am not sure that more education is the answer. People seem to automatically look to some authority figure to protect them from XYZ, rather than take steps to safeguard themselves, and I don't think I like where that trend is heading.

I'm just thinking out aloud here, so it's quite possible that this is utter rubbish. But, perhaps some people tend to 'hand off their lives to complete strangers' precisely because they know something is dangerous?

I'll try to explain what I mean. If it wasn't dangerous, the thought might be "I'm going to go with my own judgement...what's the worst that can happen?" Instead, because it's dangerous, it becomes "if I do the wrong thing, I could die...I better follow the guy who knows what he's doing".

And, thinking about it, that reasoning actually might be sound in some cases. If the situation really is beyond your training and experience and the person you're following really is more experienced and thinking clearly, following them might just save your life. Of course, you'd ideally want to avoid finding yourself in a position where your best bet is to rely on someone else to save your skin.

Anyway. Those are just a few random thoughts. I wouldn't even call them an opinion, but maybe they'll add a bit to the discussion.
 
I'm just thinking out aloud here, so it's quite possible that this is utter rubbish. But, perhaps some people tend to 'hand off their lives to complete strangers' precisely because they know something is dangerous?

We hand our lives over to complete strangers all the time. We are used to doing it in situations where we expect this stranger to have greater expertise than we do.

When I travel, I don't demand to fly the plane. Even though the pilot is a complete stranger, I presume his training is such that he or she will get me there safely.

If my house catches on fire, I won't shove the firemen (complete strangers) aside and act on my own.

If I have emergency surgery, I certainly won't quibble about the fact that I have not met the surgeon.

I think it is perfectly natural for divers to do the same with a divemaster. We are accustomed to handing over control to experts in situations like this. The difference is that many divers do not realize that it does not take a whole lot of training to be able to make intelligent diving decisions on our own, and they don't realize they have the right and personal duty to override the DM when that DM is making faulty decisions.

As for me, if I am on a boat with a typical tropical DM who is leading a dive, I will fall into line and join the group if it is a situation where it is advantageous to do so. I will make use of the DM's superior knowledge of the area and the best locations to find items of interest. The difference is that I will know if the DM is screwing up, and I will act confidently in my own behalf should that happen.

The other thing that I do is scout an area out carefully before planning such a trip. I want to know which operators lead Bozo dives before I get trapped on such a boat. By doing that, you can get dives that are led to your own level of ability, and that makes a wonderful difference in the quality of your dives.
 
We hand our lives over to complete strangers all the time. We are used to doing it in situations where we expect this stranger to have greater expertise than we do.

When I travel, I don't demand to fly the plane. Even though the pilot is a complete stranger, I presume his training is such that he or she will get me there safely.

If my house catches on fire, I won't shove the firemen (complete strangers) aside and act on my own.

If I have emergency surgery, I certainly won't quibble about the fact that I have not met the surgeon.

I think it is perfectly natural for divers to do the same with a divemaster. We are accustomed to handing over control to experts in situations like this. The difference is that many divers do not realize that it does not take a whole lot of training to be able to make intelligent diving decisions on our own, and they don't realize they have the right and personal duty to override the DM when that DM is making faulty decisions.

As for me, if I am on a boat with a typical tropical DM who is leading a dive, I will fall into line and join the group if it is a situation where it is advantageous to do so. I will make use of the DM's superior knowledge of the area and the best locations to find items of interest. The difference is that I will know if the DM is screwing up, and I will act confidently in my own behalf should that happen.

The other thing that I do is scout an area out carefully before planning such a trip. I want to know which operators lead Bozo dives before I get trapped on such a boat. By doing that, you can get dives that are led to your own level of ability, and that makes a wonderful difference in the quality of your dives.

I'd think that many (I don't have any information to back up a claim of 'most') would 'scout an area out carefully' before planning a trip. Their method of evaluation would be primarily 'indirect'. That is, they'd evaluate a divemaster/ operator in much the same way as the average person would evaluate an airline. I doubt you'd fly with an airline that you knew was currently under investigation for unsafe practices or something. But, even if you were allowed to check the pilot out in action, how would you know if he's any good? You might be able to tell if he's obviously bad (say, he reeks of booze), but you'd mostly have to base your judgement on his certification and experience.

Anyway. Back to what I think my original point/ though might've been (sorry that I'm just spilling the contents of my brain into a public forum):

Perhaps the problem is not that people are oblivious to the risks of diving. But, instead, because they're so keenly aware of the risks, they're easily led to doubt their own judgement when it conflicts with the judgement of someone in some kind of position of authority (a divemaster, an instructor, someone more experienced than they are).
 
Perhaps the problem is not that people are oblivious to the risks of diving. But, instead, because they're so keenly aware of the risks, they're easily led to doubt their own judgement when it conflicts with the judgement of someone in some kind of position of authority (a divemaster, an instructor, someone more experienced than they are).

I think that is precisely the problem. If the expert is telling you it is OK, who are you, a relative beginner, to say otherwise?

And it is not just with DMs. I remember when I was a beginner listening the seasoned veterans with whom I found myself diving, soaking up all the pure crap they were dishing out. At least a seasoned professional DM who has done hundreds and perhaps thousands of such dives is reasonably likely to do things right.

On the other hand, they all start somewhere. I did a dive two years ago in which the operator was breaking in a new DM by assigning him to a veteran group. We learned pretty quickly that everyone in the group had more dives than the DM. He was clearly intimidated and just swam around with us trying not to look too bad.
 
I think that is precisely the problem. If the expert is telling you it is OK, who are you, a relative beginner, to say otherwise?

I keep going around and around on this, and I just don't feel comfortable with any one answer. As I was formulating a post I remembered one of my first post OW dives, the deep dive from AOW.
Long story short we couldn't find the anchor line and my sac rate finally forced us to make a free ascent. For years I looked back on that dive with fondness, remembering how empowered I felt with that experience.

The real lesson I didn't get until much much later, that even though I was getting low on air and had signaled my instructor as such, we turned late, searched for the line for too long and really it could have ended badly for me. I should not have trusted the instructor, I knew from my OW training (same guy) that I was supposed to be at my 15 foot stop at this pressure but here I was 80 feet down swimming nonchalantly back to where the upline is.

So I admit, what is common sense and a no brainer decision for me now was more conflicting then. Never the less I still can remember how I felt staring at that guage and knowing I should leave the instructor and the other student and head back. I knew this and yet I stayed where I was, and if something happened I think it would have been my fault, I wasn't tied to my instructor after all.

I guess there are no right answers here, no concrete path to avoid these types of incidents. And I suspect this sort of thing is common, and yet people survive, so how much of an issue is it? Enough not to ignore I think, but maybe I am over reacting some...
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

Back
Top Bottom