Securing backup light.

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Thanks, Lewisevans, for the thoughtful answer.

I thought I had read on SB what Hogarthian diving is:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/hogarthian-diving/152758-what-hogarthian-divng.html

I did not think that providing a simple solution to a possible problem would get several Hogarthian divers jumping down my throat. I would not dare to comment on a DIR post for that reason. As the post above mentions, Hogarthian is about providing optimum solutions for potential problems, not rigid rules.

The way I store my light is exactly like shown in the picture by Lewisevans, with the addition of a 1 ft bungie to allow limited mobility. Is Hogarthian diving being hijacked by the DIR crowd?
 
bk139.... you can define bungee cord attachments as Hogarthian if you want, that is your right. You could apply any name to a configuration that you cared to dream up. However, it just causes confusion when you choose a name that is already in popular use.

The rest of us, in the technical diving community, have a clear understanding what 'hogarthian' means. People have tried to explain that to you. You don't understand. That's not surprising, because you aren't a technical diver and you don't have much experience. What is surprising is that a relatively inexperienced diver would come into the technical diving area (in which he is not qualified) and, firstly, offer advice then, secondly, argue the validity of that advice against people who are qualified technical divers and instructors.

There's nothing optimum about stupid dangling bungee cord attachments for a back-up torch. For technical diving purposes there are a number of serious safety issues with such an approach. If you don't understand those issues, then you shouldn't be actively involved in this forum as a contributor of advice.

You are wrong. On that basis, it is time to engage the eyes and disengage the mouth. You aren't answering the OP's question, but you are making yourself look foolish.
 
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Hogarthian Diving Principles - Applied to a Back-Up Torch

1) Torch is secured using a clip that cannot accidentally entangle/trap line. The most obvious, economical and accessible option is an SS bolt-snap of appropriate size. Karabiners and other gated clips pose risks and are not used, because they can accidentally trap guidelines and cause life-threatening entanglement hazards.

2) Torch is attached to clip using a secure and reliable method, that can be either break-away or cut-away in an emergency. This means a cave-knot/line or zip-tie. Split-rings and other metal attachments cannot be cut/broken-away, thus offer considerable risks in an entanglement.

3) Torch is secured in a location, where it can be instantly accessed, operated and deployed with either hand. This means on the upper torso, using a chest d-ring. The torch is secured to prevent entanglement hazard by tucking it into a loop of bungee on the shoulder strap. The bungee allows the torch to be instantly pulled free and is break-away if necessary. No component of the torch is left to dangle/float, thus minimising life threatening entanglement hazards.

4) No superfluous attachments or materials are used to prevent cluttering, risk of entanglement and stress escalation under adverse conditions (zero viz). Minimalist means minimalist. It doesn't mean 'kinda minimalist, with a few extra things added on'.
 
You are wrong. On that basis, it is time to engage the eyes and disengage the mouth. You aren't answering the OP's question, but you are making yourself look foolish.

Couldn't have said it better myself :wink:
 
Thanks, DevonDiver for the information. Not using a split ring makes sense since it can't be cut away. I was wondering what you thought of the link I posted. Is that link all wrong? Maybe you should delete it to prevent future confusion.

I am sorry that I will never be a member of the secret Hogarthian society. :wink:
Diving is still fun for me no matter what gear I use. I hope it is still fun for you.

Bill
 
Thanks, DevonDiver for the information. Not using a split ring makes sense since it can't be cut away.

There's a lot of sense in most of the standardised configurations used in tech diving. There has to be...

When you boil any of these approaches down, they all essentially amount to the same concept. DIR goes a little further, in that it encompasses team diving, gas mixes and deco procedures into an integrated and standardised concept.

Hogarthian diving is merely a principle - however, that principle has been tried, tested and refined in an appropriate environment until the point where there is very little deviation in respect of an approach to equipment configuration.

It isn't a static concept - it does retain the flexibility to encompass new developments; new materials for construction, higher performance equipment etc etc. However, one key aspect of the concept is that the system has to be tested and proven. What currently exists is tested and proven, with a monumental amount of thought and consensus behind it.

I was wondering what you thought of the link I posted. Is that link all wrong? Maybe you should delete it to prevent future confusion.

What I read was a discussion, much of which was contributed by people who don't have the prerequisite experience to have tested and proven any type of configuration. There was also a lot of confusion between DIR and Hogarthian... two very similar and non-mutually exclusive concepts, but different nonetheless.

It's informative, if you can sort the wheat from the chaff. It's hardly canonical (if such a thing exists)... and does deal more with specific kit configuration, rather than the mindset and background behind the evolution of the concept.

Personally, I don't give a damn about applying labels to this or that. I have a personal set of principles that I adhere to when diving. Those principles were passed to me by great tutors, superb mentors and through countless hours of personal research and practical experience on ever demanding dives. I never took anything on face value...and I made up my own mind about everything I adopted. That said, I always started out from what seemed to be 'best practice' and made sure to test and confirm it myself.

Most importantly, I make a principle of not regurgitating any information, that I haven't proven and tested personally. There's far too many anonymous experts doing that online already. I'd advise you to adopt that same principle.

With regards to your 'bungee cord' - I don't feel it is 'Hogarthian' because I've been in situations where superflous elastic cord would present a high risk of snagging. As an open water diver that may not seem like a serious risk to you. I penetrate deep shipwrecks - it is a very serious risk to me. The benefits of that inclusion could never outweigh the drawbacks. Dropped torch versus death. It's easy math.

It's a matter of perspective.... but, as I said, this is all about mindset and experience.

Where death is a very real consequence.... you really need to have made the right decisions in advance.

I am sorry that I will never be a member of the secret Hogarthian society.

There's really nothing of the sort. Being a Hogarthian diver is about mindset. The crux of that mindset is about continual assessment and refinement of your diving practices (and kit configuration) with an absolute emphasis on safety.

To understand and prioritize safety, you first have to develop a deep respect, appreciation and understanding of the risks. That necessitates experience. Experience at the outer fringes of the diving envelope. Experience in environments where the slightest oversight or simplest error will kill you, with no chance to resolve the situation or 'scrape through'. That is where the testing and proving have to take place.

You cannot learn to appreciate those risks or test concepts within a recreational open-water diving environment. You won't appreciate those risks with a few dozen, or, most likely, even a few hundred dives. The best you can do is accept the accepted.... and read a copy of 'Shadow Divers' so that you can begin to make sense of it.

Diving is still fun for me no matter what gear I use. I hope it is still fun for you.

Rest assured, it is. Otherwise I wouldn't have sold every belonging I owned, left my job, left my house, left my parents and taken on a life of full-time poverty in a third-world country as a full-time dive pro and wreck chaser. If it wasn't 'fun', then I wouldn't risk my neck doing dives that could easily kill me, should I mess up.

It's fun.... but it's serious fun.

...and there isn't a dangling bungee cord in sight, because I don't want to die.
 
I am sorry that I will never be a member of the secret Hogarthian society. :wink:
Diving is still fun for me no matter what gear I use. I hope it is still fun for you.

Bill

nothing to be sorry about, diving should be about having FUN. Some people dive a hogarthian rig, some dive a jacket BC. As long as you're safe ad having fun that's all that matters. Often times people get hung up on labels, but labels are just that, labels :)

That said, if you're interested in learning about a hogarthian rig and are close to Dutch Sprigs drop me a PM. I can point you in the right direction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Thanks, Guys. I don't want to make enemies on SB. I had considered that I was adopting Hogarthian principles in configuring my BP/W but I know I am not 100%. The OP asked how he could prevent from dropping his light during a wall dive. I had been searching for "dive light" and I just posted how I do it not realizing I was on a Hogarthian thread. I am surprised that Hogarthian is a rigid set of rules. I thought that was DIR.

I have been thinking which would be more dangerous; 6 inches of bungie on your front strap getting caught on something or dropping your backup light in a wreck or cave and having it fall into a crack. You could cut the bungie. Without a backup light you might be screwed in the dark. You better have a buddy nearby.

Yesterday I took a seminar on Intro to Tech at IVS. Avery was the instructor. Is this the Avery you dove with Lewis? I dove doubles in the pool for the first time with a stage bottle. It was great. I had a loop of bungie around my neck and did not die.

Bill
 
Yesterday I took a seminar on Intro to Tech at IVS. Avery was the instructor. Is this the Avery you dove with Lewis? I dove doubles in the pool for the first time with a stage bottle. It was great. I had a loop of bungie around my neck and did not die.

Bill

yup, trained with him when he was at Silent World in Key Largo as well as doing a CPR instructor crossover class with him at IVS
 
Thanks, Guys. I don't want to make enemies on SB. I had considered that I was adopting Hogarthian principles in configuring my BP/W but I know I am not 100%.

It's a common novice mistake not to look past the equipment aspects of a concept. As the saying goes "all the gear and no idea".

Mindset is everything.

Any shmuck can go out and spend a bunch of money on kit. Likewise, any can go out and fling their credit card around in exchange for X, Y or Z qualifications - there's always going to be an instructor somewhere who'd certify you against their better judgement if the money was needed.

Kit and c-cards do not make a diver.

Mindset is everything.

The OP asked how he could prevent from dropping his light during a wall dive.

Nope... he asked what people did...on a Hogarthian forum (i.e. a Hogarthian solution, not a 'make-it-up-to-suit-your-own-inexperience' one)

I am surprised that Hogarthian is a rigid set of rules. I thought that was DIR.

It's not a "rigid set of rules".

But there is a consensus about the sort of thing that kills you and should be avoided. That's not a rule dictated by man, but of nature.


I have been thinking which would be more dangerous; 6 inches of bungie on your front strap getting caught on something or dropping your backup light in a wreck or cave and having it fall into a crack. You could cut the bungie. Without a backup light you might be screwed in the dark. You better have a buddy nearby.

Loose cords, straps and elastics are life-takers in a technical cave/wreck environment.

Again, at your level of experience.... you need to start acknowledging that "what you're thinking" doesn't really have the benefit of experience or understanding of risk (within a technical environment).

For technical diving, you wouldn't rely on a buddy... if you were in a cave or wreck, you'd have a secondary back-up light.

Diving within a team is one thing... reliance on others is another thing. Reliance has no place in technical diving.

I dove doubles in the pool for the first time with a stage bottle. It was great. I had a loop of bungie around my neck and did not die.

I know a diver who died this year - seemingly because of a neck bungee getting tangled. One small issue in an unbroken chain of small issues that killed a diver with 100 times more experience than you. In zero viz, the 'simple problem' cost the life of two experienced technical divers...the initial diver and his buddy (a friend of mine). He did try and cut it... and failed...and made his situation worse (fatal).
 
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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