Searching for opinions about Rescuing a diver and decompression stop

[dumpsterDiver]

I ran a boat for a pair of friends doing a 200 foot dive once, a couple of years ago. I wouldn't do it again, at least the way we did it. We had no additional gas on board, I had no gear, and there was no one else on the boat. In other words, the divers were on their own in the water, and I think at 200 feet for 20 minutes, that's exceeded my threshold for thinking that more support is needed.

Wow that is surprising to hear. I like having another person on board to jump in and check on the deco and to help haul a body on board if that is necessary. I definitely would have an extra scuba tank and almost 100% sure i would not be involved with a dive like that without having a scuba tank of oxygen I could "throw"to the diver.


I've had to deliver or throw a deco bottle way to many times not to have one on board if at all possible. But of course, you probably feel the same way now too.

 

[eternaljonah]

if you are going to push recreational diving to the tech diving limits then you also need to take the tech diving safety procedures on board. meaning you would have planned and calculated every possibility before entering the water. meaning that if you planned to go down to 55m for 25min you would calculate before hand your min deco stops needed in case of an emergency, and if you had the emergency at the end of you planned dive you really are **** out of luck. but if you both the victim and the rescuer surface and the victim starts breathing again he would need oxygen, most small boat have only one set of emergency oxygen ( or am i wrong) and since the rescuer skipped needed deco stops he too would need oxygen. i understand and believe that it is totally unsafe to dive and leave the boat unmanned, so if you send some one up the anchor line,with an smb the boatman, captain or whom every is on board would see the victim and could get them out of the water and start emergency procedures. so as far as i'm concerned if you run into this kind of emergency and are not sure what to do, i would stay as safe as possible and not take any more risks like skipping deco completely. sitting on the couch we have all kinds of very complex and theoretical question( and i have many) but i believe one should no venture close to those risks until one is 101% ready and understand all the parameters, stay safe and dive another day....

 

[briaeros007]

Which is the point I made. If you did more adequate training for deco....and NOT a "light deco for recreational diving" course, then you probably wouldn't need to ask these sorts of questions in the first place.

If the lightbulb clicks on, then the little voice inside will say.."ah... so there's more specific training I should have done, that would have told me more about this issue...and many other issues... that my current training neglected to provide me with before sanctioning me to dive under these conditions!?!?"

On one hand, my lightbulb always works well, no need to "click on".
On the other hand I permit to have some questions about yours, since you seems to be very prompt to judge someone without ever knowing him, or knowing what he have done or not.

Also I don't speak about the true and simple curiosity which was behind the question. Visibly, for you, no curiosity and will to know more are authorized, only a strict fully rigid training withtout any question to ask to others.

So, for your information, diving information are NOT classified and are NOT on a "Need to Know" basis.



We just have different approach, and, contrary to you, I don't judge people who have different way of doing things or are just curious.
If another diver ask me something, I wouldn't say "go take another training if you want to know this answer".

Oh and wait ... I am on one of these training, and I do ask this question at my instructor.
So If i'm doing this training, it's that I didn't know there such training ? Don't seem really logical.

In my native language i would have said "Eh oh, on a pas élévé les cochons ensembles pépé".

This is true. Most organizations approach deco diving from a technical perspective, which develops a breadth of specific skills,

I do things that we have a different mean for "technical" diving.

Recreational diving : A dive which could be done with AIR (and of course nitrox).
In my definition, it isn't mandatory that a recreaction dive is a NDL dive.

Technical diving : Where trimix are needed, and/or CCR.

Can we have heavy deco with air ?
I do think...

Do I need to take the full trimix course and solo course and cave course to ask a simple question, or do I need to have all theses formation so you could becoming considering that sometimes you are just Curious, and think that some "What If" could not harm ?

Most organizations approach deco diving from a technical perspective, which develops a breadth of specific skills,procedures and knowledge to answer the obvious questions posed when operating with a deco obligation. A couple of organisations don't - preferring to maintain antiquated training standards that were rendered insufficient when technical training became increasingly available, accessible and affordable.

Do I have said that my organization have given me procedures ? (for omitted deco, for rescu, for ...)
....
...
Oh yes.

Did I give them in my differents posts ?
...
...
Yes also.


So what's your points ? That you didn't read the thread and just wanted to bash some curious newbies ?



And one last question, do you ever questions what you learned ?
From yours posts I don't think so, and IMHO, i don't think it's a good way of doing things.

You must questioned what you learned to know where are the limits (there are ALWAYS limits).

When it's my life and other life who are on the line, I wouldn't do an absolute trust to what I've learned until I've understood completly, know where are the limits, the risk, .. of actions.

It's the same things in Martial Arts.
When you learn a new catch, you want to see if you keep your guard high and so on.

 

[emoreira]

Hello,

I'm training for a certification which plan to give us something a little like "rescue diver" and "deep diver of PADI" (with a limit of depth of 60m).

In our courses, we are teaching how to rescue an unconscious diver.

The (simplified) procedures is the following :
- we put the regulator of the victim in the mouth of the victim, and keep it here with one hand. (The same hand keep the victim close to us).
- With the other hand, we use the BCD (own's or the victim's bcd) to raise up and keep a constant ascent rate (not too slow, but not too quick).
- We don't stop to do decompression stop, and we will do them in the hyperbaric chamber.

If we do just a "light" dive with very little decompression stop (say something less than 5 min total stop), I can agree, even if I never seen a diver be treated in an hyperbaric chamber in less than 1 hour after the incident so the "easy to access" chamber is a bit obscure to me.


Does this procedure is useful in the case we do some more "engaged" diving, like a 55m / 35 min diving I've got more than 1 hour of deco stop (1 min at 12m, 9 min at 9 m, 23 min to 6m and 50 min to 3 m) ,and my buddy too!


I don't think that a "blow up" decompression sickness could be treated in an hyperbaric chamber, and I give me very little chance of survival if I decide to not follow the decompression stop.


In addition, my instructor does think that nor me, nor the group of diver of the diver, must go down once the victim is safe on the boat and do deco stop I couldn't do when doing the rescue.
1°)"if emergency teams wants to move the boat to go to the hyperbaric chamber, they can't"
2°)"In Water Recompression are forbidden when hyperbaric chamber aren't very far away." (you can't have a true medical help when in-water).)
(Even if it's just doing deco stop we haven't do, and not a medical recompression).
3°) "Diving is a dangerous sport, but you aren't forced to make dangerous activities to have fun" (I'm not too sure if he wanted to say "do only light deco diving" or "you know the risk, you must follow the rules even if its really risky for you").


In case of "heavy" deco stop, do you think it's better to prevent any new casualities, and consider the unconscious diver as a "lost cause" (if he survive at least, he wouldn't have a big decompression sickness, but if he have a respiratory or cardiac failure, he is dead) and do your deco stop (as your group), or you are faithfull on the hyperbaric treatment and a live is something important and you must take the risk to help him ?

Besides all what has been said before regarding deco, to what I cannot say a word, we were taught in our rescue course that the procedure to rescue an unconscious diver from the bottom is, besides what you already mentioned :
- Put his reg in his mouth and purge to remove water.
- Empty his BCD and remove weights. Empty your BCD to avoid uncontrolled ascend. Regulate your BCD for the ascend.

 

[DevonDiver]

On one hand, my lightbulb always works well, no need to "click on".

It's a pretty dim bulb - with sub-50 dives of experience to illuminate it. That isn't sufficient experience to register as a prerequisite for entry-level technical training with many agencies.

I made an initial post advising you to get some appropriate training. You disputed that.

I've made a follow-on post explaining why I had given you that advise. You dispute that also.

So I am bailing now. I contributed my advice. You didn't want to hear that. Not a good indicator in someone so inexperienced and who is planning (?) to dive aggressively into virtual overheads.

You don't want to hear some honest opinion and views...then take your discussion to the 'Green Zone'. People will pamper your whims there... but you won't be able to talk about 'grown up' topics. This forum is a place for adults, who do adult diving. Maybe when you eventually become an experienced diver you will appreciate that more.

 

[Kern]

It's a pretty dim bulb - with sub-50 dives of experience to illuminate it. That isn't sufficient experience to register as a prerequisite for entry-level technical training with many agencies.

I made an initial post advising you to get some appropriate training. You disputed that.

I've made a follow-on post explaining why I had given you that advise. You dispute that also.

So I am bailing now. I contributed my advice. You didn't want to hear that. Not a good indicator in someone so inexperienced and who is planning (?) to dive aggressively into virtual overheads.

You don't want to hear some honest opinion and views...then take your discussion to the 'Green Zone'. People will pamper your whims there... but you won't be able to talk about 'grown up' topics. This forum is a place for adults, who do adult diving. Maybe when you eventually become an experienced diver you will appreciate that more.

 

[DevonDiver]

Kern... you can waste your time on a 50-dive superhero if you want. I only remarked that training and experience had a place within this topic discussion...and that appropriate training would answer the questions that his current training/experience has not provided.

The OP seems to think he is sufficiently well educated and experienced to express definitive opinions about technical rescue techniques - based on a couple of dives he's done with an agency that allows such inexperienced divers to conduct aggressive dives into a virtual overhead.

I don't have the time or interest to be lectured to by a diver who doesn't even have the requisite experience to even start an entry-level tec class.

I've seen a few threads recently that serve to down-play the seriousness of deco diving. I think that's a very bad trend for the dive community. Generally, I see this as a result of equipment (esp. dive computers) being seen as a replacement for skills, training and experience.

25-50 dives experience does not provide the diver with sufficient self-awareness, breadth of knowledge or refined skills to ensure safety in a virtual overhead. Obviously the diver concerned doesn't understand that - because he needs more experience to understand just how inexperienced he is at this stage. 500 dives from now, he'll have a clue what I'm talking about. 1000 dives after that and he'll understand for sure.

What I know from both personal experience, training and teaching, is that the OP would have a serious wake-up call if he enrolled on a tec diving course - such courses tend to make one vividly aware of their short-comings. Voicing one's opinions on the subject prior to actually experiencing it tends to carry zero credibility.

I know what internet debates are like... and from the OP's attitude, I know that I have zero chance of illuminating them on the reality with just words on a screen. Give me 15 minutes in the water with them, and it all changes... every time.

As for 'deco-lite'...the only possible argument for conducting such dives is "light deco is ok, because it won't kill me if/when I screw up". Is that really a mindset that should be pandered to within the diving community?

Drunk driving is ok... if I keep my speed below 30... because it probably won't kill me? But drunk driving above 30 should not be allowed because it might be fatal?

 

[ajduplessis]

@DD it's the way you handled and responded to the OP. The first 3 pages have various responses from very experienced divers and no issues. You are the one that started talking down. Up to now this thread was going great until you added your insults. As someone with leadership roles you can learn a lot from divers like Bob and the other seniors that posted here. Read the entire thread for beginning and see how some of your peers handled responses, you can learn a lot. Maybe it's your bulb that's not burning brightly.

Respect is something that earned, not forced.

 

[DevonDiver]

OP asked for opinions regarding rescue and decompression. I stated that effective technical training provided the foundation for rescue skills whilst under deco penalty. I noted that the OP did not have such training. I suggest that such training might be a more effective way for him to seek understanding of those issues.

Those were my opinions.

The OP chose to take issue with my opinions. That was his right. It was my right to respond to his issues. It was also my right to disregard further debate with the OP as a waste of time, as I didn't judge his mindset suitable for anything productive to arise.

This is the problem that occurs sometimes when inexperienced divers seek to raise discussions in forum areas that are beyond their training and experience threshold. Their questions and/or statements receive replies that they are not sufficiently developed to understand. They take such comments personally and get defensive. It's not "what they want to hear".

The green zone exists for fragile and/or new users to receive 'nothing except positive advice'. This is not the green zone. The level of debate encountered within the technical diving forum is of a considerably more complex nature and, by that nature, is likely to receive a more diverse and, sometimes conflicting, range of opinions. That is the nature of the beast. Divers with sufficient experience and training understand that beast - we might have some heated debated, but we can respect the credibility of each-others views because we acknowledge the relative merits that a trained, experienced technical diver possesses.

Frankly, I don't apply a great level of credibility to non-technically trained diver, with less than 50 dives total experience, who wishes to object to my opinions at this level of debate, in this forum. I may sound arrogant, but I do practice what I preach...and acknowledge my own limitations. You won't see me arguing with people about CCR use or Cave diving... because I don't have that experience. If I ask a question on such topics, I'll then listen politely to the response that I get from those who are​ experienced in those fields. I certainly wouldn't judge myself capable or credible to attempt to over-rule those people.

 

[Kern]

The OP was put into the basic forum. A green zone. A helpful moderator moved it into this forum. Then another moderator calls them dim, puerile, & tells them they should have posted in a green zone. It's a little ironic really.

Yes, you do sound rather arrogant.