SDI vs PADI

[Walter]

so long as the public remains largely uneducated about the differences between agencies, it will always be the lowest cost, shortest time to certification agencies that win out in the market.

I agree this is the way things are. You don't seem to particularly like this situation, but you seem to want to perpetuate the myth. I'm a tad confused.

It's my understanding the SEI is the direct successor to the YMCA scuba program. If I'm not mistaken, that gives them quite a legacy. A name change due to cost and liability concerns, yes, but it's the same people and essentially the same training program, just a different name on the card. The record at YMCA is quite well established.

You are 100% correct. The program is no longer associated with the YMCA in any way, but the program is essentially the same with the same instructors. The biggest difference is it's now growing again.

 

[CompuDude]

The shops closest to me are PADI (Sea D Sea and Dive N Surf).

The shop I use is PADI, TDI, IANTD and UTD (Ocean Adventures).

And actually I guess I didn't think of Sport Chalet, and I don't know what they teach.

Scuba Schools of America is not horrifically far (nor terribly close, admittedly), and they're an SSI shop (and possibly ANDI?). Scubahaus is closer, and they're SSI.

Hollywoodivers teaches from any number of agencies, but they're mostly pushing SDI at the recreational level these days. They can also do PADI and NAUI certs, and possibly one or two others, I can't recall.

Sport Chalet is strictly a PADI shop. (Now)

Most local shops, after a classroom session or two, end up finishing OW dives out at Catalina, so that's a schlep for everyone.

I'm there are other local shops I'm leaving off the list, but the point being, we have darned near every US-based agency there is available to us in SoCal.

(SEI, formally YMCA Scuba, is still teaching at the Glendale YMCA, as far as I know... and Tom can do a dual cert to NAUI as well, if so desired.

(There's also LA County, but they don't offer an OW-level cert. Their ADP program is a thing of beauty, however.)

 

[Kingpatzer]

It's my understanding the SEI is the direct successor to the YMCA scuba program. If I'm not mistaken, that gives them quite a legacy. A name change due to cost and liability concerns, yes, but it's the same people and essentially the same training program, just a different name on the card. The record at YMCA is quite well established.

They have no market presence. Yes, the YMCA program was very respected. But as I understand SEI today it is hardly merely the YMCA program re-branded -- that is to say, it's not as if it exists in all the same locales, with access to the same training facilities, and not all the instructors came over to be part of the new organization.

I was under the impression that this wasn't the case of a spin-off of SEI from the YMCA, it was a case of the Y stopping the program, and some instructors deciding to start a non-profit with the intent of continuing the program philosophy and methodology. I'd be more than happy to be corrected here though, as I am probably off on some or all the points here.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I agree this is the way things are. You don't seem to particularly like this situation, but you seem to want to perpetuate the myth. I'm a tad confused.

I don't like the way things are, but I don't think there is any objective data to say that the way things are is in fact bad enough provide any impetus for change. Moreover, I believe that the economic realities will always have more power to drive the market than whiny divers on a discussion board

When saying that the standards are inadequate for the average recreational diver, the discussion must stay in the context of who the average recreational diver is and what it is they do with regard to diving. Within that context, I don't see room to complain.

Within the context of what we all would probably like to see the diving community be there's plenty of room to complain -- but almost no one on this board represents an average diver.

 

[TCDiver1]

Require? For what reason? Safety? Profit? Lowering the drop out rate? All of the above? Do recreational divers require that higher level of training to perform a reasonably safe recreational dive? Where is this dive? Under what conditions? Sometimes no (warm calm tropics) sometimes yes (Monastery on a big day). One size and one answer does not fit all, but the industry would like to pretend that one answer (the easiest one) does fit all.

I never said one size did fit all. Are you suggesting that your 100 hour course prepares "scientific divers" for every "recreational" dive possibilty? I suspect not.

Many of the people (likely about half) that I've trained are, in fact, average Joe College Student, they took the class because they wanted to learn to dive and it was the only class that the University offered. I took them in and trained them because researchers need buddies who are not focused on their own underwater research projects. Buddy divers are a great resource. I'd have to say that my experience with these "buddy diver" types has been no different than my experience with the researcher types, save that they may be a little easier to train.

I've trained more than a few H.S./College divers and find it hard to keep track of them as they move on with their lives and careers, so i honestly couldn't make that comparision. I'm surprised that you can but take your word for it.

Thal, i'm not going to get into a long drawn out debate with you on this. I know i'm not changing your mind and you're not changing mine. I just felt like jumping in here and supporting Kingpatzer a little because i could see the usual SB dogpile starting on how bad things currently are.

The fact remains, an accurate data set does not exist that solidly supports either side of this debate. If it does exist i'd really like to see it.

 

[Blackwood]

(There's also LA County, but they don't offer an OW-level cert. Their ADP program is a thing of beauty, however.)

If you can actually get an instructor to finish a class...

 

[Thalassamania]

I never said one size did fit all. Are you suggesting that your 100 hour course prepares "scientific divers" for every "recreational" dive possibilty? I suspect not.

PADI is a "one size fits all" solution.

I never said that a 100 hour course prepares "scientific divers" for every "recreational" dive possibility, they are prepared (by standards) to dive to 30 feet with a similarly trained and qualified buddy or to 60 feet with a buddy qualified to 60 feet and approved buy the DSO.

I've trained more than a few H.S./College divers and find it hard to keep track of them as they move on with their lives and careers, so i honestly couldn't make that comparision. I'm surprised that you can but take your word for it.

I guess the H.S./College divers that you train have no long term connection to you and don't stay in touch, but that's the nature of "one size fits all" programs. Those I train tend to because many of our divers continue to maintain a buddy diver connection and thus are both present and turning in monthly logs or maintained their scientific diver status because there was no program at the school they moved to.

Thal, i'm not going to get into a long drawn out debate with you on this. I know i'm not changing your mind and you're not changing mine. I just felt like jumping in here and supporting Kingpatzer a little because i could see the usual SB dogpile starting on how bad things currently are.

The fact remains, an accurate data set does not exist that solidly supports either side of this debate. If it does exist i'd really like to see it.

If you fell that he is not able to adequately express his views, please feel free to help him, since this is hardly a "dog pile."

Please speak for yourself, not for me, my mind is always open to change, all that is required is insightful analysis, sorry you don't see the things the same way.

 

[Splash-X]

PADI is a "one size fits all" solution.
I guess the H.S./College divers that you train have no long term connection to you and don't stay in touch, but that's the nature of "one size fits all" programs. Those I train tend to because many of our divers continue to maintain a buddy diver connection and thus are both present and turning in monthly logs or maintained their scientific diver status because there was no program at the school they moved to.

Previously, Colleges gave credit for taking a OW scuba class through some agencies. I trained with SSI and I can say that in January of 2008 this was almost a dead thing. Colleges had gone to offers scuba at the school (USF) and not offering credit for out-of-school programs.

To your point, the students who took scuba at the college often had dive trips to the local springs every weekend. Their instructors in the class were the same ones leading the trips. This connection between student and diver is the type of relationship I think you've had with your students and it is a good thing IMO.

There is also nothing wrong with training a student and letting them go off and develop on their own. I personally enjoyed the ability to dive with my instructors after OW class on store organized dives to not only improve my skills but also keep a relationship with them. If all I was after was a C-Card and some fills I would have gone to a shop that harbored that type of atmosphere.

Fast forward to today, I pass out all of my contact information to the students I assist during OW class in a hope that if they need a dive buddy or want tips on dive spots they will call me or come in to the shop.

There are students who want to further their training after class and there are those who want to be independent and just want their fills.

 

[Thalassamania]

Previously, Colleges gave credit for taking a OW scuba class through some agencies. I trained with SSI and I can say that in January of 2008 this was almost a dead thing. Colleges had gone to offers scuba at the school (USF) and not offering credit for out-of-school programs.

While an interesting observation, I'm a bit confused, how does this fit into the conversation?

To your point, the students who took scuba at the college often had dive trips to the local springs every weekend. Their instructors in the class were the same ones leading the trips. This connection between student and diver is the type of relationship I think you've had with your students and it is a good thing IMO.

While to some degree you may be right, I do not think that you understand quite what I'm talking about. Divers who are in scientific diving programs turn in logs each month, have a physical each year, have their gear checked and repaired, check out gear from the locker, wash and store their gear at the locker, shower there, get their tanks filled, etc. There are many reasons for interactions on a weekly, if not a daily basis.

There is also nothing wrong with training a student and letting them go off and develop on their own. I personally enjoyed the ability to dive with my instructors after OW class on store organized dives to not only improve my skills but also keep a relationship with them. If all I was after was a C-Card and some fills I would have gone to a shop that harbored that type of atmosphere.

Fast forward to today, I pass out all of my contact information to the students I assist during OW class in a hope that if they need a dive buddy or want tips on dive spots they will call me or come in to the shop.

There are students who want to further their training after class and there are those who want to be independent and just want their fills.

When you are in a scientific diving program you do not have the choice to be "independent" in the sense that you use the term.

 

[simmonsjr]

Previously, Colleges gave credit for taking a OW scuba class through some agencies. I trained with SSI and I can say that in January of 2008 this was almost a dead thing. Colleges had gone to offers scuba at the school (USF) and not offering credit for out-of-school programs.

Not necessarily true, it is up to the individual school as to whether or not they accept the training. I am currently preapproved to earn credit through my school for PADI (thanks in large part I'm sure to A.C.E. recommendations) through the Assistant Instructor level.

Jason