SDI Solo training in Cayman

[tkaelin]

I don't think this is coming from the agencies....but rather lawyers.

That may be a bit overstated and naïve if you don't believe the industry and certifying agencies do not have a financial incentive to A. make the initial certification easier and water downed so as to entice more and discourage less from getting certified and B. and then to offer at add'l $ add'l training that use to be encompassed within the original or advanced certification. Deep dive, night dive, navigation dive, the list goes on. These are skills taught, developed, or within the capabilities of divers 30 years ago who were open water certified. I was stunned when I started assisting with open water cert in the 90s from what was missing from my original YMCA certification from the 70s. It was if anything more than the most rudimentary swimming skills and any semblance of physical fitness or development of it were removed and purposely so from the certification training.

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

I understand where you are coming from, but I'm not sure I end up in the same place when I follow your story.

The reason for the additional training required -- and a certification to prove it -- is because people both lie about their experience and over-rate their competence. So accidents happen....and the new regulations start coming in. Now, I suspect you and I are not lying and are highly competent, but what about all those other folks? I don't think this is coming from the agencies....but rather lawyers.

Reminds me of when I moved to Belgium many years ago. There were no drivers licenses, and pretty much the only rule was absolute priority of the right -- except when in a city with tram tracks and then the car on the street with the most tram tracks had the right-of-way. While I was living there, they started issuing drivers licenses. Lots of people complaining....but the number of accidents slowly decreased.

I hear ya...

I once had an operator that I had never dove with question my qualifications to dive a reef because my mask was old. PADI used to say one way to tell a rusty diver was by having older gear and a refresher should be suggested. I explained that, "No, I just have trouble with mask fit and I don't buy new until my current one is worn out."

I don't have a good answer either, but I have argued that instead of making rules for the lowest common denominator, that entry-level rules shouldn't be imposed on more advanced divers. Sure, keep new divers above 60ft, make them wear a snorkel and dive with a buddy. But, there needs to be an understanding that there are divers above that level that are capable of making their own decisions. Organizations like PADI don't own diving and don't have authority to establish rules for an entire industry, yet here we are...

 

[MichaelMc]

I have argued that instead of making rules for the lowest common denominator, that entry-level rules shouldn't be imposed on more advanced divers.

What hints do I pay attention to that you are a more advanced diver??
- Old gear, used to dive in fish pond for years, long ago.
- Current gear that looks tec?
- Telling me you are the greatest?
- OW card, AOW card, rescue card, (NAUI) MSD card, solo card, cavern card from tec agency?
- Chatting about your experience for 10 minutes, judging if you BS?
- Seeing you dive a few times?

The cards create a crude filter before seeing you in the water. ::shrugs::
If I use those card hints to crudely filter unknown divers, can I (legally) justify not using them on you, ETA: as a boat/shop.

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

It's possible to tell a more experienced diver just by talking to them ever so briefly or watching them setup. I used to do a lot of pickup dives where I would dive with total strangers. I could tell just by a short conversation or watching them setup their gear whether I would be willing to dive with them.

It's also easy to spot someone that's inexperienced. Generally, speaking anyone filling tanks in a dive shop knows who to ask for a cert card. It's not a difficult skill, but like anything else there's always exceptions...

 

[markmud]

What hints do I pay attention to that you are a more advanced diver??
- Old gear, used to dive in fish pond for years, long ago.
- Current gear that looks tec?
- Telling me you are the greatest?
- OW card, AOW card, rescue card, (NAUI) MD card, solo card, cavern card from tec agency?
- Chatting about your experience for 10 minutes, judging if you BS?
- Seeing you dive a few times?

The cards create a crude filter before seeing you in the water. ::shrugs::
If I use those card hints to crudely filter unknown divers, can I (legally) justify not using them on you.

Hi MichaelMc,

So you assume we are all the lowest common denominator?

I have dived with people who were not certified beyond OW and were excellent. I have dived with an instructor who lost control of his ascent and missed a safety stop while diving a lake at 6200 feet in elevation. He also exceeded 30 fpm ascent rate.

I try to avoid assuming anything about a diver until we are in the water.

thanks,
m

 

[tursiops]

That may be a bit overstated and naïve if you don't believe the industry and certifying agencies do not have a financial incentive to A. make the initial certification easier and water downed so as to entice more and discourage less from getting certified and B. and then to offer at add'l $ add'l training that use to be encompassed within the original or advanced certification. Deep dive, night dive, navigation dive, the list goes on. These are skills taught, developed, or within the capabilities of divers 30 years ago who were open water certified. I was stunned when I started assisting with open water cert in the 90s from what was missing from my original YMCA certification from the 70s. It was if anything more than the most rudimentary swimming skills and any semblance of physical fitness or development of it were removed and purposely so from the certification training.

There are many threads on SB about this.....I think the bottom line is that the training took considerably longer then (I know mine did!), and so you got more training. It is more bite-size now, so people can get into the game without having to swallow it all at once. If a person is happy above 60 ft doing simple day dives, OW is just fine. Not everybody wants to go to 130 ft or deeper, or dive inside wrecks, or whatever. For those who do, you just take more bites out of the training sequence.

 

[MichaelMc]

Hi MichaelMc,

So you assume we are all the lowest common denominator?

Mark,

The point I was trying for was that certification programs are only weak guarantees/filters but often better than no certification, and no other info, as an indicator of some proficiency level.

A Certified[Engineer|Captain|Pilot|...] is not guaranteed to be better than an uncertified one. But likely 80% of them are better. Pulling stats from memory of such discussions about software engineers.

The odds of a non-diver doing a dive well are not good. Yet certified divers do not all dive well. The odds of a non AN/DP diver doing a deep hard two deco gas dive well are not great. Yet AN/DP divers do not all do it well. But the bet is still in the direction of those certs.

Given how many OW divers are churned out, and how long/work/skill it takes to be a great OW diver who never got that pesky AOW etc., when presented with an OW diver and no other info, the odds for a good 120' dive are not great. Hearing their story, seeing them dive, adds more info.

I say this a non-cert'ed self taught sidemount diver who thinks my ability is ahead of my cert. From 'I taught myself sidemount', the odds of my having good skills, trim, bottle position and handling are not good. Yet when I took a sidemount workshop from a cave diver, they had SPG/hose suggestions but seemed to think I was doing fine. And the early legends had no certs as there were no classes. But the safer bet from 'I taught myself sidemount' is still 'I'm a disaster in the water'. Side ITT at Under the Jungle and single cavern certs are on my todo list.

Michael