Scubapro regulators under Ice

[lowviz]

Fellows: I wanted to know how Scubapro regulators do in cold waters specially ice-conditions? Has anyone used them for ice-diving or Great Lakes? I heard from an Aqualung dealer that they are known for free-flowing in ice-conditions and Apeks is the cold-water regulator of choice by among the ice diving community. ...

In my reasonably informed opinion, there will NEVER be a "regulator of choice" in the ice diving community. However, there will be a best choice for each manufacturer.

My feelings! If Atomics gets into Diaphram designs and they are able to make one as good as their piston then I would not buy anything else. I love Atomics but not the ideal reg for my purposes.

With your style of diving, I just don't understand your love of piston regs. Fine with that, though. Your preference.

What is lacking in this thread is the SKILL involved in using any reg in truly cold water. Fresh water is densest at 39F (4C). Which means it sinks. The cold water is at the bottom, the water near the surface is slightly warmer. The air freezes the top layer. Sloshing around near the surface almost always erodes the ice hole. You know it is cold when the ice hole keeps freezing over. See pic.

The first skill is to embrace the conditions you are diving in. Losing a mask is quite a shock. See pic below. That is an instructor showing a student exactly how he wants the student to "kiss the water".

There is also a strict protocol on how to handle and breathe your regs, both primary and secondary. I'd be willing to take an MK25 into those conditions, did it once. Problem is you spend too much focus on babying the gear. I've converted to MK17's and G250(V)'s for everything. They cut me slack so I can just enjoy the dive. Any of the other manufacturer's top end ice regs will do exactly the same thing. BS on "I'd only dive this or that", any good ice reg will serve the recreational diver well.



Photo credit: My ice diving course, WVFA76 photographer.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

With your style of diving, I just don't understand your love of piston regs. Fine with that, though. Your preference.

But I don't love piston regs! Like you rightfully said, I find them totally unsuited for my purposes. I prefer sealed diaphram regs. I like Atomics as a company because of their after sales support.

---------- Post added November 13th, 2014 at 09:32 AM ----------

Quick history lesson, the big manufacturers tend to focus on either piston or diaphragm style first stages. Apeks and Poseidon are the big boys in the Diaphragm side, neither of them make a piston first stage, Scubapro and now Atomic *bunch of ex Scubapro engineers btw* are basically all pistons. Scubapro does make the MK11, and MK17 which are diaphragm *I think these are actually a Tusa design that was adopted by SP*, but you don't see them often, the MK25 and MK2 are much more common and generally the ones you see when people think of Scubapro first stages.

Based on this information I am beginning to understand that when it comes to piston designs, the top dogs in the industry are Scubapro and their divorced cousin Atomic. When it comes to sealed Diaphram regs however, Atomic has none and Scubapro has some in their line-up but they do not specialize in diaphram designs as much as Apeks. Thus for anyone wanting to be under ice, Apeks seems to be a more logical choice. Makes sense?

---------- Post added November 13th, 2014 at 09:45 AM ----------

What is lacking in this thread is the SKILL involved in using any reg in truly cold water. Fresh water is densest at 39F (4C). Which means it sinks. The cold water is at the bottom, the water near the surface is slightly warmer. The air freezes the top layer. Sloshing around near the surface almost always erodes the ice hole. You know it is cold when the ice hole keeps freezing over. See pic.

The first skill is to embrace the conditions you are diving in. Losing a mask is quite a shock. See pic below. That is an instructor showing a student exactly how he wants the student to "kiss the water".

There is also a strict protocol on how to handle and breathe your regs, both primary and secondary. I'd be willing to take an MK25 into those conditions, did it once. Problem is you spend too much focus on babying the gear. I've converted to MK17's and G250(V)'s for everything. They cut me slack so I can just enjoy the dive. Any of the other manufacturer's top end ice regs will do exactly the same thing. BS on "I'd only dive this or that", any good ice reg will serve the recreational diver well.

View attachment 197486

Photo credit: My ice diving course, WVFA76 photographer.

When I did my ice diving course, we did all skills that are considered fundamental for ICE. These included:

1. De-tuning the regs.
2. Making sure that no one dry-breathes the regulator on surface.
3. Using sealed diaphram designs

In spite of the above, my sealed diaphram (Apeks XTX 50) began to leak when it was turned on.Hell it had not even seen the water when the first stage began to hiss. Mine was not the only reg. Most regulators that day were acting up though the above precautions were taken. After this I contacted Sven from Northern Explorers who does Arctic diving. I asked him what brands / gear handling procedures he uses for his Arctic dives. His reply was that all regulators act up regardless of brand / make and SKILLS. This is his reply:

Hi,

the Mares (Abyss Navy 2) is great. We did not find any reg. which did not freeze, so far.... including the Abyss and the Apeks. All regulators seems to be a good choice for cold water. Also Poseidon and Beuchat would work. I dive these two brands, currently and had an Abyss before.

The Abyss is just a bit heavy stuff. Poseidon has a nice and small 2. stage.
Apeks is used a lot for tech. diving here, so seems it can cope with extreme conditions.

Hope this helps - even if it is not just one brand which I can recommend. I think the truth is that nearly all high end products are okay - however, when diving very cold water below zero, every reg. has problems. Also the quality of the air and how much you breath will have influence.

BR Sven

 

[rhwestfall]

What makes sense is what works for you. If you need someone to service it, is that service convenient to you? If you are a DIY type, can you get parts? Despite the stigma, I have a pile of service kits for my MK-17's...... Are you hung up/married on buying new?

It's all about choices, and the reasons we come up with to make those choices. Honestly, years back I chose my old MK-10 pistons over MK-20/25 designs because I felt they were better in the cold(er) water when tuned properly (I still feel the "hot rod" tuned reg is wrong for the cold environment)..….

 

[tbone1004]

Not necessarily, Scubapro just has the one choice in the MK17, like I said, I think it's actually a TUSA design not a Scubapro design, but it doesn't particularly matter.

If you want a swivel turret for ice diving, Apeks is probably the best, doesn't mean that HOG, Dive Rite, Oceanic/Hollis and the rest of the brands that are made by ODS in Taiwan are any worse, it just is what it is. You get more diversity from HOG and Apeks with your reg style than you would from Scubapro, doesn't mean the MK17 isn't as good for ice diving as the Apeks.

Your decision will come down to three questions.

First, turret, yes or no? If the answer is yes, you have Dive Rite, Apeks, and HOG to choose from. There are others but those are the big three. If the answer is no, you have Apeks, HOG, Scubapro/Halcyon/Tusa, and Poseidon to choose from.

Second, which second stages do you like? If reversible regulators for sidemount matter, you are limited to Apeks and Dive rite if you want a turret, and you can add Poseidon if you don't want a turret. If it doesn't, then it depends on which category your first answer was. If you like sidemount

Third, is service. If you want to service yourself, you are limited to HOG, Dive Rite, and Poseidon. Conveniently that one narrows the field pretty quick if you want to service them yourself.

 

[industrious95]

I've used my G250/MK10+ in the Atlantic at 39 degrees with air temp below freezing. You have to be careful when testing the reg before entering the water. Exhaling into it caused the moisture in my breath to freeze on the metal interior of the 2nd stage, and the regulator froze in the "Open" position at 75 feet. The contents of a 120 HP tank took about 10 minutes to blow out in free flow. I aborted the dive and when I got back onto the boat, there was a bit of slush in the second stage.

An "ice diver" in my group suggested I not even put the regulator in my mouth when jumping off the boat, so the "warmer" ocean water would get into the second stage and warm up whatever metal parts were collecting ice. Second dive of the day was fine, I just didn't put the reg into my mouth until the instant I jumped into the ocean, and when I could see I was okay and floating, let the reg hang in water a few seconds before putting it back into my mouth and descending.

Now, I just avoid diving when it's that cold - I'm too old. It's not the reg, it's my fingers and face that can't take it.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

An "ice diver" in my group suggested I not even put the regulator in my mouth when jumping off the boat, so the "warmer" ocean water would get into the second stage and warm up whatever metal parts were collecting ice. Second dive of the day was fine, I just didn't put the reg into my mouth until the instant I jumped into the ocean, and when I could see I was okay and floating, let the reg hang in water a few seconds before putting it back into my mouth and descending.
.

I do not do that either. I jump in without the reg in my mouth but in my case the regulator was leaking air even before entering the water so it would not solve my situation.

 

[lowviz]

2. Making sure that no one dry-breathes the regulator on surface.

2(a) Once wet, the secondary stays submerged.

... It's not the reg, it's my fingers and face that can't take it.

Yeah, that doesn't tolerate out as quickly as it used to for me either...

 

[Hickdive]

Within the S'pro range and within models of the same type of second stage there can be some variation in their suitability for diving in extremely cold water.

For example, earlier S600 versions had an all-metal cross-case body whilst newer versions are part metal, part plastic. The all-metal version having better heat-sink qualities.

 

[Curtis C]

Its funny but I don’t remember this being an issue back in 99-00 when I started ice diving. Way back then I had a Mk 14 with a G500. The MK 14 was a non sealed diaphragm. The G500 was from after the recall, but still had the metal barrel in it. I believe the G500 was what Scubapro used to call their polar model.
The shop I dove with put on ice diving weekends that were great. They had hot tubs they set up on the ice. It was great fun. The shop only sold Scubapro at the time. So almost everybody was entirely outfitted in Scubapro gear. Almost everybody had Mk 20's and G250's. A few had the swanky Mk 20 UL’s.
I don’t honestly remember people even talking about if their reg was suitable for cold weather diving. We just dove. I remember there being the odd problem, but the shop had a tech on site.
Maybe my memory is bad but I just don’t remember it being an issue. But then again I used to ice dive back then wet. I would have a hard time doing that now. I prefer my nice warm dry suit and full face mask.

 

[axxel57]

Within the S'pro range and within models of the same type of second stage there can be some variation in their suitability for diving in extremely cold water.

For example, earlier S600 versions had an all-metal cross-case body whilst newer versions are part metal, part plastic. The all-metal version having better heat-sink qualities.

Where do you find any plastic at the barrel in the newer S600 models apart from the sleeve guide and the knob stem (like APEKS)?

SP used to produce the S600 with a part metal , part plastic barrel in the beginning, but they went back to metal only a couple of years ago.