Scubapro Mk-5 and 109 service kits.

[Nemrod]

I use mostly MkV clone firsts as I think they are better than the SP version but still, I too would be interested and certainly for R109 vdh quality rubber parts and rebuild kits especially converting to a balanced second retrofit kit. I get so tired of digging through trash bins from Nebraska to Idaho for parts that are usually worse than what I already have. I scored as NOS exhaust Tee in Alamogordo, so sometimes it is worth the dumpster diving. Is that a PadI specialty cert?

N

 

[redacted]

I know this stuff is being developed with MK 5's and 10's in mind, but would the same kits work in say a MK20/G200 or a MK2/R190 ?
Just asking.


And what about MK3's. I need a 90 duro 019 O-ring for the piston.
I used a standard 019 I found at a hardware store and it seems to be working for now on 2250 psi, but it's probably 60-70 duro and pretty soft. I looked throught my MSC catalog and they list all the O-rings you guys mention but most are in the 70 range with a few at 80, nothing in the 90 range.

Am I understanding the term "Duro" correctly meaning the hardness of the material?

Can I get away with a slightly softer O ring in my MK3 if I stick with 2250?
What happens if a piston O-ring blows out in the 1st stage, do bubbles come out of the ambient pressure holes like crazy?

Here is an aftermarket Mk2 kit: Regulators - Regulator Service Kits - Scuba Pro Service Kits - Northeast Scuba Supply

MK20/25 takes a unique HP seat so OEM is probably the only way to go right now.

Yes, duro is a measure of hardness. That duro 70 -019 should be fine on your Mk3. It does not see any pressure higher than IP until after the seat has sustained a major failure. In fact, the only o-ring in a Mk3 that sees tank pressure is the one under the flat filter so no need for duro 90s. If either of the piston o-rings fail, you should expect a small leak from the ambient chamber. In the rather extreme case of an extruded or broken o-ring, it would be a big leak. I have seen some rather ugly piston o-rings (old/dry and scraped by deposits) that only resulted in slow leaks.

Seats for the G200 and R190 are standard among a number of regulators so they are relatively easy to come by. I got tired of hunting for them and started making my own a couple years ago. Even the rivet style seat used in the G200B and other Scubapro balanced barrel poppet 2nds are fairly compatible across brands so they are also getting easier to obtain.

BTW, my wife who has consistently stuck her nose up at my homemade back plates dove with one of your aluminum freedom plates last week. I think it may cost me - but they are nice.

 

[Zung]

... IMHO, he is investing some money up front and need to recover enough to keep the business worth while...

One way to ease the setup cost, depending on how Trident do their quantity discount, is to call a group pre-order here and buy the seats in bulk. I'm pretty sure we could achieve quantities in the hundred's.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Thanks for the comments. I will send a link to both of these threads to Bryan to read.

Thanks for all the information DA Aquamaster. I am glad to see that our observations are similar.


The combined MK-5 and Mk-10 kit sounds like a good idea. I will pass that along.


I like the individual parts idea also, but he may need to introduce the kits first. IMHO, he is investing some money up front and need to recover enough to keep the business worth while.

He used to only offer service kits for double hose and now you can buy any individual part. I think a lot is going to depend on how much demand he gets.


I believe that Bryan is planning of using (or at least starting of with) the HP seat from Trident PN A242. Does anyone have any experience with it? I should be getting some soon to test out, but have not seen one yet.

A flat seat is always a possibility. Again it is all one step at a time.

I don't have any experience with them, but I do know scubapro struggled with seat materials for years with the Mk 10, 10+ and Mk 15.

There are also some significant risks in that in some situations, if the seat fails it can stop the air flow. The clasic example here is the old Mk 5 stabbing or cookie cuttering the seat creating a plug that blocks the flow through piston stopping all gas flow. Part of that is a seat issue and part of that is a piston issue.

My thoughts are that you'll need to get some solid engineering or well qualified 3rd party testing (or find out what Tirident did (if anything) to test and ensure the seat is safe before putting them in kits. Similarly, if flat seats are used there are the "old technology" issues/risks as well as quality control issues.

Getting one to test, especially with your engineering back ground is comforting, and as you know, you'll want to ensure it performs well across the entire range of tempertures and operating conditions it might be used in.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

How about a kit to convert a 109 to a BA.

I think that would be pretty tricky if you used non Scubapro parts.

With a reg like the 109, 156 or G250 where there is no adjustment other than the knob and the orifice, everything has to meet very close tolerances to get the correct lever height, working range and inhalation effort at the correct IP.

On most other SP regs, there is a greater ability to adjust spring pressure, so there is more margin of error in terms of the spring characteristics. But on the R156 and G250 it needs to meet very tight specs and that would be very difficult to do.

Scubapro has an edge as lots of their regs use that spring (but with less critical toleances) so they have large batches from which they can hand select the 156/g250 springs - but it is still very QA intensive.

Doing that on a small order basis would be either very expensive, or would produce a wide range of results.

You also have the poppet issue as as noted before Bryan would have to either find SP poppets or reverse engineer and test/certify one for use. And then he'd have the Trident seats that are a bit thicker, and ven though they seem to work ok as a sole substitution part, I am not sure how the slightly thicker seat impacts the working range and flow of the valve, and it has the potential to get worse when you start stacking variations in poppet, spring pressure, etc. The whole project could quickly turn into a poor perfroming or even potentially dangerous proposition.

Extreme caution and significant testing would need to be done and I don't think the potential profits are enough to offset the costs of developing a third party kit.

Whether they like it or not, the best option a 109 owner has is to get the update done with SP parts through an SP dealer.

 

[Luis H]

Bryan is not going to develop new poppets, or springs, etc. His kits are going to use off the shelf after market parts from Trident, etc.

As far as I know they will include the same basic components that Scubapro is including now in there service kits (probably a bit more). His prices should be much better than the Scubapro retail price, but he need to sale full kits. It is just not economical for him to just sell an O-ring or other small item. As I have mentioned, he may sell the seats by themselves, but to start of it is best as a kit.

The poppets and other parts needed for an upgrade will still be needed and will have to come from Scubapro. There are plenty of ways to obtain them. As mentioned by awap, it may require one last service by an authorized dealer, but there are other options.

The only custom part that I am aware of that VDH need to order is the small metric O-ring for the balancing chamber of the BA/ 156/ upgraded 109.

Trident is not a small company and my experience is that they stand behind their products.

The after market business is way overdue for the Scuba industry. I personally hope that the after market parts become a growing part of the scuba business.

 

[simplediver247]

I have a few ScubaPro R109 and it's big brother Balanced Adjustable 156. Smart move if Bryan @VDH is going to carry those items. You can upgrade the R109 to the 156 Balanced Adjustable with a simple upgrade kit, You essentially have a ScubaPro G250 since the internals I believe are the same in the rebuild kits. The R109 & Balanced Adjustable have been doing nothing less than going up in price over the last 12 months. Great regulators....

 

[DA Aquamaster]

The R109 & Balanced Adjustable have been doing nothing less than going up in price over the last 12 months. Great regulators....

Yes, I used to buy them off e-bay and upgrade/service/refurbish them. But the going rate on e-bay for even a POS 109 has gotten too high to make a profit doing that.

And even with the higher e-bay prices, when you get them restored and properly tuned, people won't pay what you have into them, but prefer instead to buy one unserviced and un upgraded off -e-bay (and pay more in the long run to get it working.) I used to order springs and balance chambers all the time with a steady stream out the door but I have not done that in over a year now.

 

[Zung]

... I used to order springs and balance chambers all the time with a steady stream out the door but I have not done that in over a year now.

That surely did mess up SP's statistics on part failure rate!

 

[DA Aquamaster]

That surely did mess up SP's statistics on part failure rate!

If tech services was on their game they'd have figured out that spring plus balance chamber, plus poppet = upgrade of a 109 or G200.