Scubapro Air2 question

[flots am]

Makes a lot less sense if you ask yourself how a "standard" LP hose manages to supply sufficient airflow to your primary regulator, but somehow isn't up to the task when connected to an Air2?

It needs enough flow to inflate your BC and breathe at the same time.

---------- Post added November 5th, 2013 at 07:27 AM ----------

The Air2 unit I am getting is a 4th gen model and the Knighthawk BCD that it came on was made in 2008 so it is not that old. I hope a gen 4 Air2 had all the bugs worked out. I will compare the ease of breathing from it with my primary reg (S600) and see how much of a performance hit I'm taking with the Air2.

It works fine when used as intended, which is to get you and a buddy to the surface alive.

One side of the tradeoff is that it breathes harder than a standard reg. The other side of the tradeoff is that you can't lose it, and it's probably already in your hand.

Like everything else in life, it's a compromise.

 

[tursiops]

It isn't the hose that is limiting the airflow to the Air2 (and similar units), it is the connector on the end. The larger Quick Disconnect (QD) fitting allows more airflow through it.

Yes, you can use a normal hose/fitting and an adaptor, but you will find it very hard to breath if you are really sucking it down (like in an emergency!).

A better solution is the hose/fitting made for the "Air2" and then carry an adaptor that shrinks the big QD fitting down to the normal QD fitting. Then if you have to use your reg on a different BD, you can still connect your LPI hose.

Not sure how the Air2 helps you if diving solo. It is NOT an independent air supply. How can your primary 2nd stage fail, other than free-flow? In that case, you abort while breathing from it and surface. The second regulator is for your buddy, not you. And yes you give the one in your mouth to your buddy, and you use the Air2. The usual problem then is letting air out of the BC during the ascent....you would not really want to take the Air2 out of your mouth to hold is up and exhaust air, so you might use the pull dump that is built into it....there should be knob on the corrugated hose that lets you pull the dump valve at your shoulder. If no knob, then the Air2 was added as an afterthought. Some BCs have a right shoulder dump you can use for the ascent. Practice with it.

So visualize the situation: this scared person comes swimming toward frantically looking for air. They don't know you have an Air2 so can't find your alternate. You give them the reg from your mouth, hopefully on a longer than normal primary hose. You stick the Air2 in your mouth, and hope it works. And you grab the out-of-air person by his/her BC strap so they stay close to your. Now you ascend...hopefully at a safe rate and not the one the panicked diver wants. So you are controlling your own ascent rate, holding on the the person and controlling their rate, and dumping air when needed.

Most folks have never done anything like this since their OW class, under instruction.
Practice it!!

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 4

 

[RJP]

It needs enough flow to inflate your BC and breathe at the same time.

So, you're suggesting that Atomic manages to circumvent the laws of physics and achieve this impossible feat with a standard LP hose? (I don't believe their SS1 require a proprietary hose, but could be wrong.)

PS - if you really think about it, the incremental amount of air necessary to put a little burst of air into a BCD while breathing off an Air2 is de minimus. Unless you can envision a situation where a diver would need to lay on the inflator to fully inflate their BCD, at depth, at the same instant that they are fully inhaling. Other than trying to win a helicopter ride, I can't imagine one.

 

[flots am]

So, you're suggesting that Atomic manages to circumvent the laws of physics and achieve this impossible feat with a standard LP hose? (I don't believe their SS1 require a proprietary hose, but could be wrong.)

Atomic uses the same larger hose that SCUBAPro does, as well as compatible connectors.

 

[RJP]

Atomic uses the same larger hose that SCUBAPro does, as well as compatible connectors.

Is Atomic's connector proprietary, too?

As if I needed another reason to be a non-fan of integrated inflator/backups.

 

[Scared Silly]

Check your PM I'll send ya option #2 with a hose for the cost of postage and a beer.

 

[redacted]

Makes a lot less sense if you ask yourself how a "standard" LP hose manages to deliver far more than sufficient sufficient airflow to your primary regulator to allow you to breath off of it (fully depress the purge on your reg to see how much gas it can deliver) but somehow the same hose isn't up to the task when connected to an Air2?

Things that make you go "Hmm..."

The problem is not the hose but the schrader valve in the standard LPI connector.

---------- Post added November 5th, 2013 at 09:17 AM ----------

er.....That's actually option 1

I just add my own option 3 but I guess the edit is still being approved by a mod so it's not showing up yet.

That ebay offering is a standard LP hose with an added Air2 connector - both at a decent price. The part for servicing the Air2 connector (a washer style seat) is included in the Air2 service kit when you have that Air2 serviced.

 

[bumcikaz]

Ssi and air2 uses same size hose and connector, have them both and use ss1 with air2 hose when diving singles or vice versa

 

[Bob DBF]

The reason for the difference in connectors is that a standard BC fill hose connector has a Schrader (tire tube) valve which restricts air flow, no big deal 'cause you don't want the BC to fill to fast anyway.

The Air 2 and similar devices use a connector similar to a commercial air hose which is made for unrestricted airflow so you have plenty to breathe. Because the male connector on the Air 2 has no way to engage the Schrader valve, if the hoses were interchangeable you would get no air from a standard BC inflator hose.

I had an Oceanic version of the Air 2 on my last jacket and had no issues with it, and would have put it on my wing if the conversion wasn't such a PITA. My buddy did make the conversion on his wing with his Air 2 and it worked out fine. What safe second you use makes no difference as long as you know how to use it, and it is a lot more reliable than a second that has been dragging along the bottom for who knows how long.



Bob
-------------------------------------------
"No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously" -Dave Barry

 

[jetracer]

Thanks all for your replies!!

There are so many other things to consider on a seemingly simply subject....a hose and a connector.

As pointed out by you guys, the Air2 serves 2 purposes (inflator and ocotpus), it stands to reason that it will require more air when asked to do them simultaneously. Will a regular LP hose and a QR adaptor/connector combination allow adequate air flow for both? It more than likely will but at how much of a performance hit compared to a dedicated OEM hose made for the Air2? I am not sure.

Then again as pointed out by RJP, the short burst of air needed to inflate the BC should not take that much away from the Air2, at least not to the point that it cuts off all air flow to the regulator part. Even if it does lower it a bit, it will only be for a short while.

Just like what flots am pointed out, it's all about compromise.

As with all short hose assemblies, the effective flow rate is going to be determined by the most restrictive part of the whole assembly which in this case is most likely the QR adaptor/connector. I just made a call to XS Scuba for more information on the adaptor but all their support staff are at the DEMA show in Florida so I will have to wait till next week when they return from the show to get the answer.

Without hard data from the manufacturer of the QR adaptor it's hard to compare these 2 solutions but since Scared Silly so generously offered to send me my 'option 2' (LP hose and QR adaptor/connector), I will test it out and see for myself what's what and go from there.

Again, I learned a lot from all your responses sharing your personal experience and thoughts on this.

Thanks!



---------- Post added November 5th, 2013 at 10:02 AM ----------

It isn't the hose that is limiting the airflow to the Air2 (and similar units), it is the connector on the end. The larger Quick Disconnect (QD) fitting allows more airflow through it.

Yes, you can use a normal hose/fitting and an adaptor, but you will find it very hard to breath if you are really sucking it down (like in an emergency!).

A better solution is the hose/fitting made for the "Air2" and then carry an adaptor that shrinks the big QD fitting down to the normal QD fitting. Then if you have to use your reg on a different BD, you can still connect your LPI hose.

Not sure how the Air2 helps you if diving solo. It is NOT an independent air supply. How can your primary 2nd stage fail, other than free-flow? In that case, you abort while breathing from it and surface. The second regulator is for your buddy, not you. And yes you give the one in your mouth to your buddy, and you use the Air2. The usual problem then is letting air out of the BC during the ascent....you would not really want to take the Air2 out of your mouth to hold is up and exhaust air, so you might use the pull dump that is built into it....there should be knob on the corrugated hose that lets you pull the dump valve at your shoulder. If no knob, then the Air2 was added as an afterthought. Some BCs have a right shoulder dump you can use for the ascent. Practice with it.

So visualize the situation: this scared person comes swimming toward frantically looking for air. They don't know you have an Air2 so can't find your alternate. You give them the reg from your mouth, hopefully on a longer than normal primary hose. You stick the Air2 in your mouth, and hope it works. And you grab the out-of-air person by his/her BC strap so they stay close to your. Now you ascend...hopefully at a safe rate and not the one the panicked diver wants. So you are controlling your own ascent rate, holding on the the person and controlling their rate, and dumping air when needed.

Most folks have never done anything like this since their OW class, under instruction.
Practice it!!

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 4

I agree with you, I realistically will only be using the Air2 as an octo for myself in case if my primary fails or if I'm diving with a buddy and he's out of air for some reason.

When I'm diving solo I will replying on a pony tank to bail myself out in case I'm out of air for some reason.

Like you said, practice practice practice!

Thanks.

---------- Post added November 5th, 2013 at 10:03 AM ----------

The problem is not the hose but the schrader valve in the standard LPI connector.

---------- Post added November 5th, 2013 at 09:17 AM ----------



That ebay offering is a standard LP hose with an added Air2 connector - both at a decent price. The part for servicing the Air2 connector (a washer style seat) is included in the Air2 service kit when you have that Air2 serviced.

I stand corrected!

I just looked at the ebay posting again and you're right! It looks like what the guy is selling is a LP hose attached to a QR adaptor/connector.

Thanks for pointing that out!

---------- Post added November 5th, 2013 at 10:15 AM ----------

The reason for the difference in connectors is that a standard BC fill hose connector has a Schrader (tire tube) valve which restricts air flow, no big deal 'cause you don't want the BC to fill to fast anyway.

The Air 2 and similar devices use a connector similar to a commercial air hose which is made for unrestricted airflow so you have plenty to breathe. Because the male connector on the Air 2 has no way to engage the Schrader valve, if the hoses were interchangeable you would get no air from a standard BC inflator hose.

I had an Oceanic version of the Air 2 on my last jacket and had no issues with it, and would have put it on my wing if the conversion wasn't such a PITA. My buddy did make the conversion on his wing with his Air 2 and it worked out fine. What safe second you use makes no difference as long as you know how to use it, and it is a lot more reliable than a second that has been dragging along the bottom for who knows how long.



Bob
-------------------------------------------
"No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously" -Dave Barry

I didn't know about the Schrader valve, just learned something.

What I am thinking about using is a LP (regulator) hose (not LPI hose) and a QR adaptor that has a threaded back end for the LP hose to screw onto.

My next rig will be a BPW but for now a Knighthawk will have to do.

Thx