Scuba training costs..........

[BHB ScubaTroll]

Personal, no I didn't "countered as if it were". If you took it that way, please go back and read it again. It was far from personal.

I will only use 3 of your arguments. They sum it all up (Why? Because this is the root of the issue, and this is the contradition you "seem" to have with us saying the same thing):

Yes independant I contract my services to LDS for classes they have no one who can teach them available and I teach separately from them, Most of my instruction. I don't rent their equipment, I don get air fills from them. The only thing I am missing from what they have is retail equipment to sell and a store front. Can I sell equipment? YES because I sell theirs for them and with no commission, they like that. This year alone I certified more then 100 OW students not including the AOW, Cavern, Cave, Adv Nitrox /Deco classes, DAN O2, CPR, Dive trips. etc. No more than 8 OW students were from LDS's, Yes Independant, Owner Genesis Diving Institute of Florida

You have contacted to the consumer who agrees your price is fair. This is the free market system. If the consumer did not feel your price was fair, you would not be contracted.

It's great that you sell the LDS equipment. If you felt it was worth it, you would request a commission. Then, YOU as the consumer would decide whether it was worth it to sell their equipment based on your discussions with them. It would be a symbiotic consumer relationship (win/win). You sell more of their good gear because your customer needs it, and you receive commission on it.

This is what I am attempting to bring forth: It is a consumer driven relationship. If you have no one to consume, you have no business

Course fees are set by competition to get the consumer and yes what the local market will bear. A $99 class down in Tampa Florida would be a $$00 class in upper state NY. The Consumer, who is unknowing of what to expect in quality pays based on this competition, Course fees are set by the LDS's. That is why there is such a difference in one LDS to another. . What all is included in that $99 class and what is paid for extra? By the time it is over the amounts from one LDS to another may not vary to much. OK I'll give it to you the consumer sets the fees

Again, you have hit it on the head, but don't seem to understand what it is. "Fees are set by competition to get the consumer" based on "...what the local market will bear"

I will agree that most consumers are unknowing of what to expect in quality. That is the fault of the local market. They have not taken the time to help consumers understand the quality of their product vs price. Until they can show (and make the consumer understand) why their product is superior to the competition, the price will stay as it is, consumer driven by a market that cannot show them a difference. If the local market can educate the consumer, the competition will change. It will be a competition to find the best instructor!

Many of the LDS's ask me if I would be interested in teaching for them. I tell them my fee and what is expected to be provided and what I will provide. Often I hear that they could not afford that. My answer is that they are not setting their fees correctly

Look at that! An example of the very thing you are attempting to discredit. You have given a perfect example of the free market system. I couldn't have given a better example, thank you!

LDS's ask me to teach for them, sort of like out sourcing They pay me my fee Why would I turn that away? I don depend on them for teaching

This is also the market/consumer in action. I will let you know after reading my response here "discredit" was the wrong word to use... apologies.

Those consumers (of your service) who agree your price is fair, continue to contract you. Those consumers who "could not afford that", choose another outlet for their dollar. This is the free market.

I am in no way attempting to have you turn away a consumer who agrees your fees are fair (on the contrary). When you say you don't depend on them for teaching, it is only a partial reality. It goes to the bottom line of your business, which goes to your increased livelihood. Without these consumers, you would need to "make-up or lose" the income generated by a brick and morter business that is bringing you business.

See how cheap it was to get you!

CHEAP? No, it's just a penny for your thoughts!

 

[GDI]

In reading I believe we are agreeing to the same things. My point of view was intended from the LDS hiring instructors.

The so called $59-99 classes often have the consumer paying in the end as much as the $200-$400 class once all equipment fees and dive site fees and the like are paid. In here is where some LDs make up the difference.

I have seen quite a few LDS separate the fees from each other and do much better. That is fees from classes cover all class costs and Equipment sales cover themselves, Travel sales cover thems selves and etc. All of these sales roll up together to allow the LDS to cover its other overhead

The amounts that some LDS pays to their instructor varies from $25 - $50 per student. I acknowledge some instructors do better under this format. Here is the devaluing of the Instructors time.

Scuba programs have by the American Council of Education a recognition of scholastic achievement. Partial credits for college level programs. Scuba classes need to be priced accordingly to this regard. Sadly, this is not going to happen within the near future. If a instructor requests more for teaching, the LDS simply says good bye and hires another instructor willing to accept the meager payment who often not knowingly in the end pays to dive, the pond is full of them.

Many shops who compete this way do not get the people coming through the door as they would like and end up closing their doors.

Is this the Instructors fault or just poor sales and service?
It's not completely the managements (the ultimate responsibility is yyes) Instructors can make and do make a large contribution to the success of the LDS. A disgruntled instructor in time will leave or be fired. When this happens many of the customer base goes with him. Scuba is a word of mouth business.

 

[beach89]

Please refer to my previous post on shop operational costs....those shops probably have boats as well to maintain.... It costs lots money to start a scuba shop....

Ron

Nope. No boats or pools. Most have been around for 30+ years so I doubt the costs of starting a scuba shop still apply.

 

[Hoosier]

Scuba programs have by the American Council of Education a recognition of scholastic achievement. Partial credits for college level programs. Scuba classes need to be priced accordingly to this regard. Sadly, this is not going to happen within the near future..

Oh~~~ I am sure if it will never happen unless you are teaching within the university program. We have an underwater management program and students can get the certification and credits at the same time, but it is 16 weeks program (one semester) and covers many other academic stuff.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Rccently I had the new owner of a local shop ask me why I'm not teaching any more. The answer was simple and there are two reasons. The first is that I never made enough money teaching to make it worthwhile. The second is of course that I disapprove of how the agencies do things and don't wish to feed them money.

It's probably a different game in a place like Florida where you have two oceans, the springs/caves and the keys not too far away. Here, in the midwest, the game is OW certifying the masses and sending them on trips to the tropics and that doesn't pay squat. We do have some deep quarries and the Great Lakes fairly close so some of the guys doing technical training make out ok but they charge real money for what they do. I spent years traveling an hour and a half to Haigh or three hours to Gilboa just about every weekend and the money that I made teaching never even paid my expenses let alone pay for my time or labor. If it wasn't for assistants that were willing to work for free, I would have been in real trouble. Of course, free assistants aren't reliable and show up when they want so I had to have the shop closed on weekends so my wife could be available to assist when no one else showed up. There's nothing quit like having a day of OW, AOW and specialty dives planned and ending up alone with no help.

When I had a shop, I had to teach because that provided the equipment market and other cash flow that kept the doors open. Even at that though, the shop paid it's own way but depended on my free labor and I never did get a pay check from it.

Eventually I decided to stop donating my time and labor so the manufacturers could make money on equipment, the agencies could make money on certs and materials, the quarries could make their $20/head and local folks would have a convenient place to get certified.

I've said it before, the dive industry is like amway or something. There are plenty of kids willing to teach for almost nothing and plenty of other folks who don't need the money and don't mind paying to teach on the weekend. Without them, the industry around here would collapse because the money to actually pay people just isn't there.

I remember when I taught for other shops and would get last minute calls on a Friday to teach two AOW dives for two students on a Saturday. The shop paid me $6/student/dive. So I could give up a Saturday to gross $24. LOL that doesn't even pay the mileage on my truck. I could make double that by just renting out my equipment for the day and never even getting out of bed.

I think that about sums up the dive business around here. Other than tech instructors, I don't know any one who makes money teaching. Should we be surprised when we look at the quality of instruction? I don't think so. You don't always get what you pay for but you almost NEVER get something that you don't pay for.

Of course you can run classes and charge what you want but the student gets the exact same card and resultant access that they get with the cheaper class down the street. A PADI card is worth what a PADI card is worth and the going rate just isn't very high. If we did away with this card and agency nonsense instructors could sell real instruction to those who wanted it rather than marketing the access that comes with cards...kneeling on the bottom for a total of 80 minutes $99...a real diving class $1000

 

[Thalassamania]

Scuba programs have by the American Council of Education a recognition of scholastic achievement. Partial credits for college level programs. Scuba classes need to be priced accordingly to this regard. Sadly, this is not going to happen within the near future.

I don't know what this has to do with pricing, most students who took our course took it on "overload," so the credits didn't acually cost them anything. The ACE thing is a complete crock. I had a student demand to get credit for my course because they had a PADI certification. I said no, and she hauled out the ACE and PADI documents. I still said no and she all that crap to the Academic Senate. I agreed to let her take the written final and pool skill exam, she flunked both. That was the end of the story, but it cost me way more time than it was worth.

 

[caseybird]

If we did away with this card and agency nonsense instructors could sell real instruction to those who wanted it rather than marketing the access that comes with cards..

Why does the cert. system exist? How does the industry (the shop, boat or air supplier) function without agency certifications?

 

[Thalassamania]

The concept of certification dates back to way before there were agencies. There were standards put together by a bunch of the old timers (mainly research divers from Scripps and L.A. Recreation Department aquatics types) that wound up being published as part of the "National Diving Patrol" column in the fledgling Skin Diver Magazine (model was sort of "National Ski Patrol"). So if I set myself up as an Instructor I would issue a paper card (or letter) that said: Certified as a scuba diver by Thalassamania to meet the standards of National Diving Patrol." NAUI grew out of the National Diving Patrol. Some academic diving programs still follow this model. Remember, even today, that it is not the agency that certifies the diver, it is the instructor.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Why does the cert. system exist?

To create a market for cards?

How does the industry (the shop, boat or air supplier) function without agency certifications?

Can I rent a boat without a dive certification and go out and dive off of it? I'll bet I can. Can I hire a boat and a capt, tell him where to park the boat and jump off of it with scuba gear? I'll bet I can.

Do you know that I can buy any gas mix I want from a "gas supplier" and they don't care what I do with the gas and that they don't know or care anything about diving certifications? I can.

The only place that I have to show a card to buy gas is at a dive shop. The only boat that wants to see a diving certification is a "dive boat". The common thread is their agency affiliations.

You've been had. LOL

 

[TheRedHead]

Do you know that I can buy any gas mix I want from a "gas supplier" and they don't care what I do with the gas and that they don't know or care anything about diving certifications? I can.

Premixed? <adding more characters>