Scuba training costs..........

[MikeFerrara]

Seems to me that enough "certified" divers, who are supposed to know what they are doing are dying from stupid things. If you think it is ok, and it sounds like you do, that we buy/sell dive gear, and learn on our own, as we go, then that is fine. Don't start crying highway robbery when insurance companies clamp down even more on this stuff. I suppose you think a drivers licence is just a government scam too then eh?

Bill

I'm all for training but unfortunately training and certification are two completely different things and usually don't go together.

Divers are buying access (certification) and are willing to accept poor training because they get the access they paid for. Take away the requirement to purchase access and divers wanting training will only pay for training that has value and I think the certification mills will be left without a market. There aren't many who rant more about the dive accidents that than I do. I also happen to be one who thinks that the agencies own a large percentage of the dive accidents because the training they sell is such a joke. Do we want the certification marketers in a regulatory role? I don't.

As a side note, you don't need a certification to purchase equipment and you never did. You need a certification to get gas fills at a dive shop, get on dive boats and to rent equipment.

You asked about drivers licenses. First of all that's law isn't it? But lets talk about drivers training. My drivers education class that I took in high school gained me access to a license at a younger age than if I hadn't taken it (access). My father is the one who taught me to drive. The test you take to get a drivers license is a bigger joke than dive training requirements. What do you have to do? Drive around the block and park? Now take a ride on a Chicago tollway. LOL see any connection?

 

[Thalassamania]

I don't need a certificate to ski.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't need a certificate to ski.

Maybe you can now but if the scuba agencies ever branches out into other sports you may not be able to.

We do lots of dangerous things that we don't nee certifications for.

How about using power tools? Could you imagin not being able to buy bar and chain oil without a chain saw certification? Many people misuse bench grinders and if a weel flies apart it can kill you (or someone near by) in a heart beat. You can still trot on down to sears and buy a grinder or replacement weels without showing a certification.

Heck, you may need a drivers license to drive on public roads but you don't have to flash your drivers license at the gas station to get gas. LOL You can obtain a drivers license without ever driving on a tollway or expressway. I wonder why you don't need a specialty or advance license. I can see it now, there could be a snow specialty, an ice specialty a rain specialty and a city driving specialty, a manual transmission secialty and a 4 weel drive specialty. Maybe an entry level license should only be good for dry roads at speeds up to 30 mph.

Backing up a bit you don't need a certification to dive either. You only need one if you're dealing with agency controlled shops, charters or resorts. When Black & Decker branches out into training, they'll no doubt require their ace hardware dealers to not sell power tools and accessories without seeing proof of the appropriate certification. LOL

 

[TheRedHead]

How about using power tools?

I'm a lot more dangerous with power tools than scuba equipment.

 

[owlbill]

Sure seems like the agencies may have pissed a few people off the wrong way. Sheesh. I only partly blame the agencies for lowering standards in recent years. But, it is still up to the shops/instructors that promote training to give a good and complete course. There will always be shops that give away crappy courses in hope of selling that family (who they just gave a course discount to) many sets of gear, likely also at a discount. I am only saying, and to some degree I think we agree, that a good course should cost good money, regardless of why the course is taken. Whether someone just wants "access" to diving to me is not the point, but I do see your point on it.

My original question was only about why training does not cost more at a basic level, mainly so the instructors can be paid properly. Yes, I do agree that a better quality course should cost more than a basic, total minimum skills course. No question there. I have also found that if we promote our course as "ours" and not NAUI or PADI or whoever, even though it is based on their standards, it has helped us a lot. People are starting to shop for quality now, but price and scheduling will always come into play.

Not really sure what I just said, as I have already forgotten how I started this post. Sorry for the incoherent babbling, and very likely spelling and grammar mistakes also too as well.

 

[Thalassamania]

"Ours" is the key concept. My course's have always been tied to the university or to me. If an agency card was (is) supplied, it is for the convienience of the student, not because it means anything in and of itself.

 

[beach89]

You asked about drivers licenses. First of all that's law isn't it? But lets talk about drivers training. My drivers education class that I took in high school gained me access to a license at a younger age than if I hadn't taken it (access). My father is the one who taught me to drive. The test you take to get a drivers license is a bigger joke than dive training requirements. What do you have to do? Drive around the block and park? Now take a ride on a Chicago tollway. LOL see any connection?

Drivers ed is a lot different now. You need 50 hours driving with your parents, 8 hours with an instructor, 30 hours class time, and you need to pass 2 tests. Personally, I find driving a lot harder than diving(which I find relaxing and wouldn't do if it was hard), and if I had to go through the same for diving then I'd better be able to be an instructor when I come out.

 

[Ron Brandt]

"Ours" is the key concept. My course's have always been tied to the university or to me. If an agency card was (is) supplied, it is for the convienience of the student, not because it means anything in and of itself.

I like that.

Ron

 

[Thalassamania]

I like that.

---------------Me too.<G>

 

[Storm]

You can obtain a drivers license without ever driving on a tollway or expressway. I wonder why you don't need a specialty or advance license. I can see it now, there could be a snow specialty, an ice specialty a rain specialty and a city driving specialty, a manual transmission secialty and a 4 weel drive specialty. Maybe an entry level license should only be good for dry roads at speeds up to 30 mph.

Actually Mike you're generalizing a bit here based on the area where you live. (and yes I appreciate the humour. snow speciality. )

But that being said, in Ontario there is actually do have a graduated licensing system that only allows the student (regardless of age) to drive in a limited manner. Before they are allowed to wreak havoc on the streets , they must take an additional test where they are tested on highway driving, etc.

The &#8220;entry&#8221; level license restricts the "apprentice drive" from driving at night, with more than 2 passengers, and they are not allowed on a 400 class highway (US equivalent, interstates/expressways). They are also on a zero tolerance for alcohol. (the legal limit for a full driver is .08 percent). The new student also has very few demerit points (4 I believe) which means that two speeding licenses in a year (regardless of the speed) and their suspended, and must start their probationary period over again, once the suspension is lifted.

Since the province implemented this system, new driver accident rates have tumbled dramatically.

But again this is all just minutiae. The real issue is quick and dirty training supplanting more in depth (pardon the pun) training, by marketing lower prices to get the student into the shop and then using piece meal pricing schemes to pad up the price. In some cases, less scrupulous shops actual use these hidden costs to "trap&#8221; the student once they&#8217;ve paid for the course.

&#8230; &#8220;Oh by the way, you will need to pay these extra fees, and purchase this gear, as you progress through the course. Excuse me? No we don&#8217;t give refunds, but here&#8217;s a shop credit.&#8221; &#8230;

Take a 99.00 dollar a la carte course. By the time the student pays for the, course (99.00), the book costs (49.00), rental fees for gear while on the course (60.00 -- 15.00 per night * 4 confined dives), another 60.00 for the OW check out gear rentals, then add in the snorkelling gear (140.00) and certification fees, and you've got a total 475.00 - 500.00 dollars for the "a la carte&#8221; course.

Now take the other end, with a course that charges 350.00 for the same course but includes everything but the snorkelling gear and you&#8217;re looking at the same price, just in one case it&#8217;s spelt out up front, and on the other, uses hidden costs to bait in the potential student.

I have no idea about the &#8220;Resort Course&#8221;, so I don&#8217;t know how they operate, but. Personally, the whole idea of the &#8220;learn to dive in a weekend&#8221;, just scares the heck out of me.