Scuba training costs..........

[Ron Brandt]

So how far East does Western canada stretch? lol.

I guess the deal is to just stop under cutting the next guy and start charging what you feel you're worth......it'll probably ensure you get more time for your own diving though
....normally you'll just get it stright IN the back-end.

Actually I do charge what I want....This is a secondaly source of income for me ,not a primary one .... I also sell gear at internet pricing or better !

Some of the top dive ops in the world do not purely rely on scuba as their only source of income. One of the top dive ops on Cozumel has fingers in the food and beverage industry,real estate, lodging and fishing. They are not expensive to dive or learn to dive with, or to stay at their small motel....They do have 7 boats,full crews , a great staff and are allways busy.

There are no rules that state a store owner has to be at the "store"...

Ron

 

[beach89]

The shops around me charge $400-$500 including CW, equipment rental, material(books and DVD), and OW dives. You have to pay a bit more to get into the quarry and get air refills.

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

Interesting...It is the ones in govt positions as this is a govenment town...

Ron

That explains a lot.

I have heard government employees who are being paid twice what the private market would bear, receive more benefits than the private market and three times the vacation, complaining about how little they are paid, how their benefits might get cut and how they are overworked/deserve more vacation.

Perhaps it IS the area you are in.... Things that make you go... hmmm!

 

[Hoosier]

I'd just like to know who's charging $99 for OW classes! I paid $474 for just the class, not including the $155 I still owe for the checkout dives!!

The shops around me charge $400-$500 including CW, equipment rental, material(books and DVD), and OW dives. You have to pay a bit more to get into the quarry and get air refills.

I think it is a typical price in Mid-West. Everything related with the water is high price. This issue has been covered on the board many times. Some folks in FL never understand what is going on here.

Sure, it is free market. LDS can charge whatever they want, but at the same time, they should know that they will lose many potential buyers after completing the class. Their way of business never stop within the class.

Most shop owners and instructors used to argue the quality of class in the cheap price here. Yes, that might be true, but there is no guarantee that the pricey one is better. In my case, it was a horrible class. They simply ignored PADI standards.

So, YMWV!


My recommendation is to get the best & best instructor and pay the deserved high price.

 

[cork2win]

I think it is a typical price in Mid-West. Everything related with the water is high price. This issue has been covered on the board many times. Some folks in FL never understand what is going on here.

So very true. With water being at a premium around here I guess water-related sports figure if you want to play you'd better pay. In areas with more water I'm assuming competition is greater therefore prices lower.

My recommendation is to get the best & best instructor and pay the deserved high price.

I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately this isn't easy to accomplish. I did a lot of research before signing up for my class and couldn't find hardly anyone to give me a specific referral to an instructor for my training. I had a few people recommend LDSs but very few recommendations or reviews on actual instructors. I think I got very lucky and ended up with a good one by chance but I could have paid my big money and ended up with a crappy instructor just as easily. I would wholeheartedly support an "instructor review" website of some sort because I couldn't find one anywhere. Scubaboard was my best shot with at least locals chiming in on shops, but still very few actual instructor reviews.

 

[TheTrickster]

My OW Training cost roughly $360, that included everything - Books, Pool Dives, Boat Dives, Equipment (Suits, BC, Regs etc etc), Air and as many dives you needed to qualify/understand (I presume if you're completely crap at diving then there is a limit!)

To be honest I didn't even look at the price when I walked through the door - for training of something that can *potentially* kill you it shouldn't matter. Like expensive clothes in the window of posh shops with no labels - If you want to know the price - you can't afford anyway...

I was very impressed with the value for money (and more importantly the instructors and standards) - and like others have said working out the hours they spent with us in the pool, classroom and boat, they couldn't of made much money.

But I got my wetsuit, fins and booties from the shop, and at the moment I'm doing my AOW at $550 and Nitrox at $300 which I presume they will make money from. To which I say good on em!

 

[GDI]

Lets take a look at this $99 class

Normal class around here: 6 students (we are counting gross, not net)

Class: 6x99 = $594.00
Books 6x45 = $270.00
Mask/Snorkel/Fins 6x$130 = $780.00 (I take this one as an average 40/30/60)

Everything else is provided during class (and is used again, and again) Shops usually have space for class available, so there is little overhead for that

So far Gross is at $1644.00 for a group you may never see again.

Not too shabby a way for the shop to bump gross receipts if they run two a month (we're not talking about any other shop sales/services)

Now lets take out the other things aside from the cost of books that you have already mentioned: Things such as mailings and shippings, cost of electricity and AC-heating and cooling, water, sewage, garbage, Media Material, Wear and tear and maintenance on the equipment, Gas (thiers the LDS owners) to drive to the LDS and dive sites, Compressor operation, certification processing, insurance for shop and possibly for staff including instructors, advertisement, mortage/rent, pool rental or access fees

If the instructor only makes 1/2 the original sign up fee ($50.00), that is $300.00 for the class (remember it's not a way to make a living, but can offset some costs of living)

If the shop is paying you $50 per student then the shop is relying solely on equipment sales to make a buck on this class. If you are spending even a minimum total 10 hours of teaching then you are making $5/hour/student or in this case $30 per hour. This may seem good but then one class size will vary from one to the other your time of teaching does not. You may have a problematic student thus causing your teaching pay to reduce. The time you take to do the paperwork per student thus further reduces your teaching pay. The time you take to prep equipment and do repairs for a class further reducing your teaching pay. Your gas to drive to the classes and dive sites, yup further reduces teaching pay, your insurance, your dive equipment - purchase and maintenance - yet a further reduction.

Now I can go further but then I think you should have already realized that in the end at this rate you are paying them to dive and possibly to teach diving

Your list

There are usually other perks:

• 
  [*]Trips at greatly reduced prices or free- Yes the Wholesale rate you still pay[*]Equipment at cost - Again the Wholesale, still paying, did you add the shipping cost to get it to you?
  [*]Many shops pay commissions on products sold by the instructor As an instructor you sell equipment anyway as the students take example from what you wear. The LDS expects you to wear their equipment lines which you pay for at "cost" But this is a nice touch by the LDS owner
  [*]Many instructors also do repair More of your time and usually not with any great pay back. Very few LDS pay for you to attend the repair seminars[*]Many instructors are NOT freelance, but employees of the shop Some yes and they get paid minimum wage. Some will be paid extra for the classes they teach. It is not likely that they are covered for medical/dental or even workmans comp. Usually they are classed as part time employees or are the youger instructors who are there while they are completing schooling and then they are gone.[*]Many instructors' insurance is paid by the shop

=== Very Few

Is it a way to support a family? NO!
Is it a way to have fun doing what you love to do? YES!

No its not a way to support a family BUt it could be. The industry has allowed this and the consumer now expects this. I don't seem to have any problem getting customers paying my prices and I'm an independant instructor. I get more students then a few of the LDS do. As a note yes my wife works and we are a dual income family as many families are. My annual income is above the poverty line by a long shot and all I do is scuba instruction. PS: It is really a fun way to make a living
===

I am not posting this to belittle any instructor or instructor service. I am sure there are other things I couldn't remember from my instructor days.

I agree in that I do not think you are

One example:
Not my class or my charter but was available to me.

• Flew to Coz
• Stayed at the Villa Blanca (when it was newer)
• Made two dives a day for three days (lunch included)
• All the shore diving you could make (including night dives)

Cost (flight included): $210.00 - Cost for everyone else - $799.00
$589.00 savings on one trip

And again you/he/she still paid for this and the entertainment expenses which were incurred while there. The LDS most likely received a royalty of 10-15% of the bookings for setting up the trip. This something anyone can do on their own and the LDS by facilitating it should get something. They may have even had a free seat on the airplane available. All they did was average out the cost per traveler and paid for it as a package deal. Many times trips get cancelled because the LDS can't fill the spots and the trips on a per person basis would be too costly and they would loose the free spot. The $210 was just an administration fee


The cost for classes are set for by the LDS and the few independants that are out there. Instructoirs are permitting this to go on. In fact it is the instructors who by this permission are devaluing the classes. Open free markets are fine and cause for competition. The instructor who is working at the $99 class rate and letting this go most likely has another job. You can add up the cost of teaching and multiply that by the number of students if you wish but in the end you may find that you are still paying for your diving. A class fee should be set so that even if one student were to attend that the parties involved would still make a margin of profit. This profit would only increase with each student attending a class.

Many of the LDS's ask me if I would be interested in teaching for them. I tell them my fee and what is expected to be provided and what I will provide. Often I hear that they could not afford that. My answer is that they are not setting their fees correctly
If they choose to work on a minimum class size to break even I understand this and thus we try to load the class to achieve this. This is no diiferent than what a college would do for a program. The equipment sales should not be added into the equation of profits for conducting a class, the equipment sales should stand alone separate from the course fees and the course profits.

Just my $0.02 worth

 

[Scuba_Steve]

Actually I do charge what I want....This is a secondaly source of income for me ,not a primary one .... I also sell gear at internet pricing or better !

Some of the top dive ops in the world do not purely rely on scuba as their only source of income. One of the top dive ops on Cozumel has fingers in the food and beverage industry,real estate, lodging and fishing. They are not expensive to dive or learn to dive with, or to stay at their small motel....They do have 7 boats,full crews , a great staff and are allways busy.

There are no rules that state a store owner has to be at the "store"...

Ron

Hey Ron, the first paragraph was for you, the balance was a general statement to everyone

My gut tells me you know what you're doing.

 

[BarryNL]

That explains a lot.

I have heard government employees who are being paid twice what the private market would bear, receive more benefits than the private market and three times the vacation, complaining about how little they are paid, how their benefits might get cut and how they are overworked/deserve more vacation.

Yes, but apart from George W. Bush, do you know any others?

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

I can see you took my original post from quite a different view point

Lets take a look at this $99 class
Now lets take out the other things aside from the cost of books that you have already mentioned: Things such as mailings and shippings, cost of electricity and AC-heating and cooling, water, sewage, garbage, Media Material, Wear and tear and maintenance on the equipment, Gas (thiers the LDS owners) to drive to the LDS and dive sites, Compressor operation, certification processing, insurance for shop and possibly for staff including instructors, advertisement, mortage/rent, pool rental or access fees

Guess you missed that part where I said gross a few times

If you claim mailings and shippings, water, sewage, garbage... and a number of other items listed here as those used by dive students during training class... well, ok

If the shop is paying you $50 per student then the shop is relying solely on equipment sales to make a buck on this class.

Again, guess you missed that part about gross income... ($99-$50 = $49 gross)

If you are spending even a minimum total 10 hours of teaching then you are making $5/hour/student or in this case $30 per hour.

Gross Income - And, if you are spending only 10 hours teaching, I wouldn't want to be a part of that class

This may seem good but then one class size will vary from one to the other your time of teaching does not. You may have a problematic student thus causing your teaching pay to reduce. The time you take to do the paperwork per student thus further reduces your teaching pay. The time you take to prep equipment and do repairs for a class further reducing your teaching pay. Your gas to drive to the classes and dive sites, yup further reduces teaching pay, your insurance, your dive equipment - purchase and maintenance - yet a further reduction.

Ah, the independant instructor... but, not independant.

Now I can go further but then I think you should have already realized that in the end at this rate you are paying them to dive and possibly to teach diving

And yet, there are shops making money and paying employees.... That's a horrible economic idea?

Your list

There are usually other perks:

• ....

=== Very Few

Which is what I would expect if for "Independant Instructors"

No its not a way to support a family BUt it could be.

If the comsumer is willing to pay

The industry has allowed this and the consumer now expects this.

Driven by supply and demand

I don't seem to have any problem getting customers paying my prices and I'm an independant instructor. I get more students then a few of the LDS do. As a note yes my wife works and we are a dual income family as many families are. My annual income is above the poverty line by a long shot and all I do is scuba instruction. PS: It is really a fun way to make a living

Fantastic!!! Excellent for you. Perhaps you should train the original poster of this thread so he can make a living at it too?
===

I agree in that I do not think you are

You are right. I chose to support my family in a different way... but, it WAS a nice attempt at insulting me that failed horribly

And again you/he/she still paid for this and the entertainment expenses which were incurred while there.

I should have paid for this and the entertainment expenses. It was my mini vacation!

The LDS most likely received a royalty of 10-15% of the bookings for setting up the trip.

I am sure the LDS made money on the trip and I would expect it. But, they could have made more if they hadn't offered me that perk.

This something anyone can do on their own and the LDS by facilitating it should get something. They may have even had a free seat on the airplane available. All they did was average out the cost per traveler and paid for it as a package deal.

Wow, If I could have done this on my own, it wouldn't be a perk.

Many times trips get cancelled because the LDS can't fill the spots and the trips on a per person basis would be too costly and they would loose the free spot. The $210 was just an administration fee

One man's administration fee is another man's vacation

The cost for classes are set for by the LDS

DEAD WRONG! The cost for classes are set by what the largest number of consumers are willing to pay for a given service

and the few independants that are out there.

Again, set by what the consumer is willing to pay for your service

Instructoirs are permitting this to go on.

You make it sound like they have a choice. Oh, but they do. Adapt, instruct or find another way to make income.

In fact it is the instructors who by this permission are devaluing the classes.

Consumer sets the price

Open free markets are fine and cause for competition.

Absolutely!!!!

The instructor who is working at the $99 class rate and letting this go most likely has another job.

Bingo!!!

You can add up the cost of teaching and multiply that by the number of students if you wish but in the end you may find that you are still paying for your diving.

As an independant instructor, you SHOULD be paying for your diving.

A class fee should be set so that even if one student were to attend that the parties involved would still make a margin of profit.

If there is only one student, most shops cancel the class unless that student wants to pay for individual instruction (You did say you are currently an instructor)

This profit would only increase with each student attending a class.

Utopia

Many of the LDS's ask me if I would be interested in teaching for them. I tell them my fee and what is expected to be provided and what I will provide. Often I hear that they could not afford that. My answer is that they are not setting their fees correctly

Look at that! An example of the very thing you are attempting to discredit. You have given a perfect example of the free market system. I couldn't have given a better example, thank you!

If they choose to work on a minimum class size to break even I understand this and thus we try to load the class to achieve this.

You have spent this entire post in an attempt to show everyone that you DON'T understand this.

This is no diiferent than what a college would do for a program.

An independant college, yes. A government run college, no.

The equipment sales should not be added into the equation of profits for conducting a class, the equipment sales should stand alone separate from the course fees and the course profits.

Don't require students to have mask, fins, snorkel, and in many cases weight belt. If that were the case, then equipment sales would not have been added into the equation

Just my $0.02 worth

I feel like you should take $0.01 back