texfox98
Registered
Ok the “lost” computer…I’m still very new and don’t have my own. Do they not automatically sync the data? Like could the data have uploaded to his account?
Training Scuba Ranch Incident Report
- Thread starter kammel78
- Start date
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Different computers do things differently. They don't automatically synch, though. I don't particularly care about the data on my dives, so I have not uploaded mine to an account in years. However, f you were to take my computers after a dive, even long after a dive, you could get all the information off of them.
johndiver999
Contributor
The instructor's actions are impossible for me to relate to, as well as the parents (who are divers).
I would never let my child of that age NOT dive with me on an open water certification dive. Just would never do it. If the shop/ instructor gave me any kind of pushback, then I would simply find another. The consequences are just too high for me to delegate that kind of responsibility.
I would never let my child of that age NOT dive with me on an open water certification dive. Just would never do it. If the shop/ instructor gave me any kind of pushback, then I would simply find another. The consequences are just too high for me to delegate that kind of responsibility.
An instructor is responsible for the safety of everyone on a dive, including people on the dive who are on the dive but are not students. Those "tagalongs" count for the student/teacher ratio. If a non-student on the dive has an emergency, the instructor would be expected to attend to it.
In a famous case in Florida about 15 years ago, a certified non-student accompanied the instructor and student. The non-student had some ear problems and decided to end the dive. The instructor went with the non-student briefly and then returned to finish with the student while the non-student exited the water. The non-student was later found dead, and the holy Hell that transpired from that should serve as a lesson for all instructors. The argument was that when the non-student had the ear problems, the dive should have ended, with the instructor going with both the non-student and the student all the way to the shore.
Also locally, I'd really wish people would stop posting and commenting on what "they would've done with their kid". You don't know what you don't know. Someone walking into a dive shop talking to a very persuasive salesperson about how scuba is ultra safe and the shop takes all precautions... most people will believe them. After all, don't we want our students to listen and trust the instructor? That is based on the assumption the instructor is trustworthy and following all procedures.
So an average parent who entertains the idea of certifying their kid is trusting that all policies are followed and everything is safe.
jblittle
Registered
The father is a diver. The mother is not. They paid extra for 1:1 OW lessons during the pool portion of the class. They asked if the father could also be in the water, since he's OW certified. They were told no unless he also paid for the OW certification class. Hindsight is 20/20.... you'd imagine that having a dive instructor and dive master, following all the protocols correctly, would be just fine, but it wasn't on this particular day. We take risks in life all the time.... and we hope they all turn out okay. But, the fact that key evidence is being covered up is where the criminal case gets worse. Give the family all the information. It's the right and legal thing to do.
For those who have never done it....
Instructing from a platform in low visibility is challenging. The instructor is in the middle, and he or she moves from student to student as they perform skills. Outside the platform, the rest of the students are watched by an assistant or assistants (usually DM). My first work as a professional was being an assistant under those circumstances. Another DM and I constantly circled the platform, watching the students who were not working with the instructor at the time.
In my very firm opinion, for a class that size, you need two DMs. It takes too long to circle the group for one person to do it effectively. The number of assistants assigned to a class is the decision of the shop, and that decision, of course, is based upon how much the shop wants to pay for the instruction it is providing. The burden, however, is on the instructor. If the instructor believes conditions are such that a second DM is needed, but the shop only sends one, then the instructor has to decide whether to go ahead and teach under the conditions dictated by the shop or cancel the class (and probably be fired).
As I have pointed out in thread after thread after thread, that is a major problem with the way instruction works around the globe. The shop sets up the conditions of employment, and if those conditions violate standards, the blame is on the instructor for violating the standards. The shop just hires a new instructor and goes on as before.
Instructing from a platform in low visibility is challenging. The instructor is in the middle, and he or she moves from student to student as they perform skills. Outside the platform, the rest of the students are watched by an assistant or assistants (usually DM). My first work as a professional was being an assistant under those circumstances. Another DM and I constantly circled the platform, watching the students who were not working with the instructor at the time.
In my very firm opinion, for a class that size, you need two DMs. It takes too long to circle the group for one person to do it effectively. The number of assistants assigned to a class is the decision of the shop, and that decision, of course, is based upon how much the shop wants to pay for the instruction it is providing. The burden, however, is on the instructor. If the instructor believes conditions are such that a second DM is needed, but the shop only sends one, then the instructor has to decide whether to go ahead and teach under the conditions dictated by the shop or cancel the class (and probably be fired).
As I have pointed out in thread after thread after thread, that is a major problem with the way instruction works around the globe. The shop sets up the conditions of employment, and if those conditions violate standards, the blame is on the instructor for violating the standards. The shop just hires a new instructor and goes on as before.
johndiver999
Contributor
Thanks for the added information. NO, I would NOT imagine that all would be ok. I can imagine all the things that can go wrong.
And yes we take risks, and yes we allow children to take risks, but when there is a risk of a fatality AND the parent CAN materially mitigate that risk by their presence, then they probably should do so. Perhaps that is something that can be learned from this horrible tragedy.
Also, simply increasing the instructor/professional to student ratio would in this case, probably NOT made any difference. The potential benefit of increasing the ratio is based on the underlying premise that the professionals involved would respond to an emergency in an appropriate manner. From what I have heard of this accident, they have clearly demonstrated that they would not respond in a reasonable manner.
In other words, if they (all) were too "stupid" to start looking for her when she was confirmed to be missing, how the hell can you assume they would diligently watch her - when the stakes were much lower?
One clown or 5, it still was obviously a circus.
We both agree that 8 students to 1 instructor and 1 DM is too many for low vis. But I’d break the class in half as a solution and only take 4 students (or fewer) in the water at a time.
In low vis it’s really hard for the instructor to be sure that they have all 8 students plus the DM accounted for. If the instructor has a good view of the 4 students and the DM has a good view of 4 students, do they have 8 in total or only 7, 6, 5 or 4? Especially if all the students are in matching shop rental gear and hard to tell apart.
Here in Vancouver I’ve never seen any Open Water class with more than 4 students to an instructor in the Ocean, and on poor vis days I’ve seen instructors break the class down to just 1 or 2 students at a time. Makes for a long day and lots of dives for the instructor.
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