Scuba dove? Scuba dived?

[Hoomi]

Isn't it funny that we start off with one humorous posting of a comic, and end up with five pages of discussion on the mechanics of the English language?

 

[Darcey]

Oh my.

My inner grammar *insert term for what Hitler was here* is having a fit! I've been having this internal fight about dived vs. dove for EVER!

I need a drink!

 

[nessum]

I agree with your point on variation. But does variation necessarily mean that rules mean nothing?

This sentence consider please you do.

OK....someone could figure out what it means. Maybe it is even an "allowed variation" (maybe not). But is it standard American English? No.

The idea that variation is superior to rules, or that common usage is correct, simply by virtue of the fact that it is common usage leads to all kinds of things that dumb down the language. I'm sure you're familiar with the various "common misuse" lists that abound. Also consider that while general ignorance may, over time, alter the language, that doesn't mean it is desirable.

Consider adverbs. SOOOOOOOOO many people will say something like, "yeah, we drove to the store pretty careful" rather than "...pretty carefully". Just because so many people (maybe even the majority these days) will say "pretty careful" doesn't make it standard. By the same token, a classic one is the misuse of the apostrophe to indicate plural (14 times in what recent post on here) - esp. in relation to an acronym or date. How many times have you seen things like "I have 400 CD's in my collection" or "All my music is from the 1980's". Such things are incorrect, plain and simple, according to the standard. The fact that so many people do it only alters the usage, not the standard.

Depends on the standard. Standard American English, or some other standard of English.

Don't get me wrong, I have the urge to edit everything I read and the first to insist on Oxford standard should someone try citing Webster's as an authority. I'm well aware of the proper use of adverbs and adjectives.
However, part of the beauty and fun of the English language is its variation and playing with it.
Besides, colloquial speech shapes the language despite existing prescriptions and proscriptions. It's inevitable.
Also, in our global village I think it's inappropriate to judge English according to an American Standard or a British Standard, etc. Communication occurs across cultures. Maybe that's just because I adhere to the Canadian Standard and am a little sensitive that my Mac, even when set for Canadian English doesn't know how to spell 'colour'!

Anyhow, what I'm spending too much time debating is that it's hardly worth debating about. (Uh oh, a preposition at the end of a sentence!) I don't advocate abandonment of the rules, in fact I love grammar; however, I acknowledge that resistance to evolution is futile.

If you haven't already read it, I highly recommend the book, Eats, Shoots and Leaves by Lynne Truss. Something tells me that you'd get a kick out of it.

 

[NudeDiver]

I acknowledge that resistance to evolution is futile.

I believe in a more expanded version of that notion. Everything is futile

I have noticed that there isn't some big debate about the mandatory set of rules one must follow in math. For example, if I decided to add 2 + 2, the correct answer is 4. It doesn't matter where you are, or where you went to school. There isn't any room for variation (unless maybe one is using an Intel processor to calculate the results). If you provide any other answer, it is WRONG!! INCORRECT!! Unfortunately, these days, in the PC coddling world in which we live, it is impolite to tell someone that he or she is wrong.

Teacher: What is 2 + 2 ?

Johnny: SIX!!!

Teacher: That's great Johnny. Does anyone else have an alternative answer?

Jenny: FOUR!!

Teacher: That's great Jenny! What is 5 + 5 ....

Unfortunately, this methodology seems to have spilled into all areas of academic learning. Everything is fluid and flexible and it doesn't really matter if you get the correct answer - it is the effort that counts.

Today are car's in the shop. We done gone two for different shop's to git it ficksed, but this won was best. Tomorrow, we be getting knew radio's put in. The current one's only get music from the 80's and don't play no CD's. It will done be cool when we do that.

After all, what difference does it make if a university educated person writes like a fifth grader, as long as people can understand the message.....ugh.

 

[dkktsunami]

Oh my.

My inner grammar *insert term for what Hitler was here* is having a fit! I've been having this internal fight about dived vs. dove for EVER!

I need a drink!

Quit fighting - "dived" is correct. But have the drink anyway.

 

[InTheDrink]

Language evolves. If you work out a way to stop that, please PM me.

 

[maged_mmh]

I believe in a more expanded version of that notion. Everything is futile

I have noticed that there isn't some big debate about the mandatory set of rules one must follow in math. For example, if I decided to add 2 + 2, the correct answer is 4. It doesn't matter where you are, or where you went to school. There isn't any room for variation (unless maybe one is using an Intel processor to calculate the results). If you provide any other answer, it is WRONG!! INCORRECT!! Unfortunately, these days, in the PC coddling world in which we live, it is impolite to tell someone that he or she is wrong.


Unfortunately, this methodology seems to have spilled into all areas of academic learning. Everything is fluid and flexible and it doesn't really matter if you get the correct answer - it is the effort that counts.



After all, what difference does it make if a university educated person writes like a fifth grader, as long as people can understand the message.....ugh.

while i do not agree about the futility statement; the rest is sad; sad but true .

 

[InTheDrink]

NudeDiver, comparing maths and language isn't really relevant. Language is much more nuanced and complex than the maths you're referring to. If you want to go up the scale in maths then there is lots of scope for debate and variation also.

 

[nessum]

Again, I will state that I am not dismissing rules. I am not making excuses for those who are too lazy to master their native tongue. You are arguing something rather different than the point I am trying to make. English is not math it's more like science with evolving theories and accepted practices and some enduring common themes, guidelines and basics.

To make it simpler to grasp what we call English now would be completely incomprehensible to an early speaker. Many laypeople today refer to Shakespeare as Old English and consider it a pain to read/listen to. It's quite different from what we speak today and even how we write in a formal context and Shakespeare's english is Early Modern English. Give Middle English to your average Joe or Jane on the street and they won't be able to decipher the meaning. As far as true Old English, well, apparently you'd be better off getting someone that speaks Icelandic to read it than someone who has grown up in the UK, Canada or the US (to name but a few). To try to FORCE the language to stay the same would be like removing natural selection. Language is not math, but your example did bring to mind not 2+2=6, but rather, 2+2=5.

 

[mikemill]

For example, if I decided to add 2 + 2, the correct answer is 4. It doesn't matter where you are, or where you went to school. There isn't any room for variation

Actually there is a lot of room for variations. By changing the space the operations are done in you can get different results. For a quick example 2 + 2 = 10 is valid if I'm working in base 4. So the language of math can be just as convoluted as the language of english. They both just describe ideas.