Scuba diver dies after being found floating at Kurnell, NSW, Australia

[ScubaInChicago]

Learning yes, but groundless accusations not based on the actual event benefit no one

A lot has been learned so far. A lot has been discussed. We have even had a very unusual and enlightening discussion of what makes for good detective investigating, and how computer forensics for court are handled.

A lot has yet to be learned about the actual accident, because the investigation is still ongoing. And, sadly, a lot may never be known, because that is often the case in such a death.

I liken it to a selfish suicide. Everyone who is left behind asks all the why's and tries to put the pieces together to bring closure, but the truth remains the same, no one know what happened in those last moments or what was going on in their mind.

As FACTS evolve from the investigation, it will not bring the Quero back. Being alone in an inhospitable place only to have a life threatening event take your life doesn't sound like an afternoon dive I want to take part in alone. I like having people who can laugh at my mistake because they saw what I did wrong.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

I dont want to sound overly harsh to anyone but I guess Subtle is not working.... Somehow we took this thread WAY into left Feild.. But now that OJ has come up; as well as a Multitude of other cases.... The Chain of evidence regarding the dive computer is a blatant dig at the divers involved. Having been a Paramedic my training was the Body becomes Evidence when Death is Declared. CPR being done on the beach means the Paramedics had custody of the "Body" when it first became "Evidence" and Chain of custody was maintained.

As many people dont care to read the entire thread, And this Info Keeps getting burried; another Repost of my summary For all those without knowledge of the known Facts....

We have had many comments on how long this thread has become. We have seen tangents taken down roads of quite possibly wild speculations. I'm not saying that this is bad, I think the fact that this tragedy has made divers think and re-think their own dive practices was the spirit in which these kinds of threads are intended to be useful

As we see in the post from scubadada the facts have been clouded in the mire of speculation and theorising so I will summarize

Prior to the events of that Day Posts and coments were made by Quero regarding
1) Dificulties experianced arround the new Drysuit (However its worth noting She had dived sucessfully while wearing this suit prior to the dive in question.
2) How to tweak her set up because of point #1 (Yes the new tweaks "may" have had somthing to do with the incident but there is no evidence it did)
3) She complained of leg pains (Again it "may" be related to some medical cause but there is no evidence it did)

On the dive in question..... I am combinding the info from posts # 83, 104, 113, 114, 120, 123

The dive site was fairly benign – with good conditions and good viz.
There were four divers in the water on Monday. One chose to move away from the group at various times (Presumably Quero)
Near the end of the dive, the group surfaced, presumably to get a bearing on the exact exit point.
On the surface, the group was somewhat separated, but communicating. (Quero Said she had 50 Bar)
One of the divers told Quero to come close to the group while on the surface. The response was she was fine and will meet them on the sand
The group descended, presumably because the swim to the exit point was easier underwater.
eventually seperating herself from the group of two she was with and Quero swam past the third diver
At some point during the swim in, Quero got further separated from the group.
Shortly after becoming separated, the group of 2 surfaced #1 & 2 began looking for bubbles when they first exited the water-this is the norm for them. They could not locate bubbles. When diver #3 surfaced (rebreather diver) he was immediately asked if he saw/knew where Quero was.
Searching for Quero Immediatly started once the seperation was recognised (While still in the water).
Two members of the group immediately started a search, a third went to shore for help.
One of the group found her shortly after, motionless on the bottom. Time lapse between separation was approximately 10-15 minutes.
Quero was found near the dive exit. Im taking 2mtr to 5mtrs of water, depending on where you are. Ordinarily its a easy incline along a sandy bottom with sea grass towards a rocky shore. Depending on tide you can swim to the shore or flat rock hop to get to land.
Two Attempts were made to bring Quero to the surface (1 Diver attempted, then 2 divers braught her up together)
She was brought to the surface, and In Water Rescue Breaths were given.
With the assistance of people from the boat, she was brought to shore.
CPR was being performed when Ambulance arrived and took over. (Death was Declared After This point)



All gear appeared to have been functioning properly during the dive.
She did not show signs of distress or physical ailment during the dive, up until the point of separation.
There were no known medical issues.
It appears that she swam away from the group, for unknown reasons.
Upon realization, the group immediately started a search and found her relatively quickly.
All attempts at resuscitation failed.






All other information as I have been able to understand in this thread has been the matter of Speculation

The amount of weight was stated as fact but latter found to be an estimate (anyone who has lifted an unconcious or dead body knows they feel heavier than normal) Actual weight requires the Police to reliquish her equipment and Autopsy Report

The Tank was empty when Quero was found may be a fact but the theory she ran out of air is not we have no way of knowing if she died or had problems before or after the tank emptied (purged) or in fact how it came to be empty.

The Readings said 10 Bar, the asumption the readings are/were incorect would require the Police to release the Dive Gear.

Pictures of her in her gear are all Prior to the incident in question. As no one saw what hapned no one took the only picture which would tell us what hapned. The closest thing we have is her dive computer which the Police yet retain.

Until the Police release an official report we will likely get no more pertinant Facts than those already given.

Jax said it best

"Jax # 113

Who is to say that whatever happened in the moments of separation could have been prevented?

It's really important to not go down the "if only" ramp, because it leads to "should've, could've, ought to've" that no one could forsee."


I myself am now waiting to hear either directly from the dive buddies or from the police investigative report.... anyything else is speculation. I dont think I missed anything, but I didnt have time to re-read 76 Pages.

As we have already seen this thread cause creation of another thread based on a Theory earlier.

I am now outright asking the Moderators to start another thread for this discussion as it now has little if even anything to do with Marcia. Investigative discussions have gone so far from discussing this specific case that it is now sugesting events involving other cases (like Police Diver or Investigator Ineptitude and Diver malfeasance (Switching out a Dive computer) that its tainting the Thread with unreasonable Speculation which could be seen as Factual by those who dont have the whole story. This could/will cause severe distress to the divers involved when there is no currant legitamecy to such statements or speculations.

Regarding the Investigation All we know is

Death would have been Declared (by Paramedics) after CPR on the beach Failed.
The Police Divers recovered the Camera.
Other gear was taken by the police including her Dive computer.
The Autopsy was done.
The Divers have been Contacted to be Re-interviewed and at least one has done so.

Thats ALL the Public Info we have at this time regarding the investigation.

 

[merxlin]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

There have been a number of posts regarding investigative techniques and evidence gathering that at one point were relevant to the thread. Splitting the thread would be difficult as some of the points raised do apply to the accident. However, at this point please refrain from further comment on that subject and keep posts relevant to the incident. If you would like to continue that particular discussion please start a new thread. Thank you.

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[dumpsterDiver]

Do the police really care how she died? Once they determine that it appears to be an accident, that there is no evidence to suggest that someone deliberately killed her, that her gear was functional... do they really have to figure out the details? Would they be able to formulate a defensible theory with no witnesses? What value would all this have to the tax payers?

What if somebody gets tossed off a horse and dies..do the police need to determine it was caused by a bad saddle, an improperly sized saddle, a rattlesnake, a loose horseshoe, riding too fast, riding alone when they should have had a guide.. (can you tell I know nothing about horses)....So they check the computer, check her gear, find out she was alone and the autopsy (may) show no medical defects... Are they gonna spend endless hours speculating on the root causes of the accident?

 

[Phil_C]

Do the police really care how she died? Once they determine that it appears to be an accident, that there is no evidence to suggest that someone deliberately killed her, that her gear was functional... do they really have to figure out the details? Would they be able to formulate a defensible theory with no witnesses? What value would all this have to the tax payers?

What if somebody gets tossed off a horse and dies..do the police need to determine it was caused by a bad saddle, an improperly sized saddle, a rattlesnake, a loose horseshoe, riding too fast, riding alone when they should have had a guide.. (can you tell I know nothing about horses)....So they check the computer, check her gear, find out she was alone and the autopsy (may) show no medical defects... Are they gonna spend endless hours speculating on the root causes of the accident?

In one sense probably not - but there are at least three purposes to the investigation into a death. First is to satisfy themselves that there was no foul play. Second is to determine cause of death. The third, and this does not apply in all cases, is actually exactly what we try to use this forum for and that is to find out what happened to help prevent similar deaths in the future.

Some types of death, such as road accidents (and probably being thrown from a horse) are sufficiently common that little can be learnt from them that we don't already know. For scuba related deaths they are thankfully sufficiently uncommon that a lot can still be learnt from most of them. Most countries have a requirement that these lesser known types of accident leading to death are investigated thoroughly and have a full inquest hearing to learn what went wrong and maybe recommend guidance as a result of it to prevent it happening again.

So are they going to spend hours speculating about the cause of death - I hope not, speculation has no place in an inquest, but informed opinion based on the facts will have. If that leads to recommendations or raised awareness that saves a life then I don't think that is a waste of tax payer money. - Phil

 

[clownfishsydney]

Do the police really care how she died?

I would say no. However, I do and a lot of other divers do. I always want to know why divers die. Why? So that I do not make the same mistake.

I suspect that what is happening with the police divers involvement (which I have previously mentioned is unlike any other diver death in NSW in past 25 years) is that DAN has been trying to get the various Australian police forces to use a set series of procedures when investigating diving deaths. Perhaps they are now doing this.

I am in receipt of some more information about this accident and will soon send to the people involved my updated report to see if they are willing for it to be released.

 

[letterboy]

Do the police really care how she died? - snip-.. Are they gonna spend endless hours speculating on the root causes of the accident?

Why would they, we here on SB have solved every scuba related accident. All they need do is check this forum.

Seriously though, if there is no foul play suspected why would they (any law enforcement agency) spend time working it?

There is much to learn from accidents in our sport but sadly I don't think Marcia will have taught us anything with her death. The way she lived her life will be what we all remember about her. The time she took to keep this forum going, mentoring divers and the joy she took with her everywhere she went.

 

[Insta-Gator]

That sounds like a good way to close this thread, IMO.

 

[Diver0001]

Why would they, we here on SB have solved every scuba related accident. All they need do is check this forum.

Seriously though, if there is no foul play suspected why would they (any law enforcement agency) spend time working it?

There is much to learn from accidents in our sport but sadly I don't think Marcia will have taught us anything with her death. The way she lived her life will be what we all remember about her. The time she took to keep this forum going, mentoring divers and the joy she took with her everywhere she went.

I can't speak to why they might do this in Australia. However, I do have a picture of why the police in the Netherlands get involved. In the Netherlands there is a special group of police who investigate all diving accidents. Their initial investigation, of course, is focused on any criminal aspects. Any possible civil liability cases will also use evidence collected by police so they are required to assemble a report regardless of whether or not a crime has been committed and whether or not a civil case is pending at the time of the investigation. Furthermore, insurance companies can refer to the police report as an independent neutral 3rd party in the handling of claims (they will only normally do this if it works to their advantage, however).

Most of the time, it's the insurance companies that become difficult and the victims are the ones who use the police reports to force the insurance companies to pay.... In one case I know of, it took over 5 years for the victims to get the insurance companies to honour their commitments and pay out according to the agreed upon policy. Having an independent 3rd party report helps lawyers push the insurance companies. If that report wasn't there then the insurance companies would probably never pay. In the Netherlands you're better off doing business with the mafia than with insurance companies but that's a whole other thread....

In Europe, the EU also maintains a number of norms and standards with respect to diving safety that can be used to underpin legislation in member countries. Police input about diving accidents is aggregated and analyzed at this level as well in order to support any changes to those.

So, there are reasons why the police might play a role even if it's not a criminal case.

R..

 

[gypsyjim]

It does sound like the police are continuing to complete a pretty full investigation of this accident, and are/will be re interviewing each of the three dive buddies involved. It is this police report we are all waiting for, and it may take some time for them to complete their investigation. Till then, all we have is bits and pieces, some true, some probably not true, and some pure speculation, and a whole lot of wanna be experts willing to "tell" the rest of us their version of what happened.

It saddened me yesterday though, to again see someone pop into this thread and after not seeing the need to bother reading all of the thread, accuse the buddies who were involved in this horrible event of abandoning Quero, and forcing her to dive as a solo, when folks have pointed out repeatedly that Marcia had a reputation with those who dived with her, of making herself a solo with a camera, and a very tough "buddy" to try being a buddy with.