Scuba diver dies after being found floating at Kurnell, NSW, Australia

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Your post: "Many good points being made and possibilities brought up. Question: Where was her buddy?

Now I'm as or more guilty than anyone of not being a good buddy in that I drift off and do my own thing. That said I've had buddies that just will not let me do that. Every time I think "check on X" there he'd be right behind, above and to my right, every time! It was almost annoying. A much better buddy than I. Darn shame she didn't have a buddy like that. "

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It certainly reads as trying to blame the buddy.

I think most of us feel that her staying with her buddy(ies) might have resulted in a different outcome, but whatever happened, it was not a lack of a buddy that killed her on that dive. A buddy might have been able to help, certainly, but she chose herself to abandon the buddy team, and we really do not know what it was that actually caused her death. Everything is still speculation, projection, and looking for answers that we may never find.

No sense taking this thread into the mud, and calling each other names, which is not showing respect for Quero, the others involved, or each other.


Well then a question is pointing blame? You must live in a very confused world. Tell me when someone posts that they x is to blame for y is that a question to you? I don't speak or post in riddles or code, if I was blaming I'd have used the word and made the accusation so they'd be no question.

---------- Post added October 17th, 2013 at 09:27 AM ----------

in reading here about her seeming determination to do things her way and not accept suggestions, I wonder if she (Quero) would have chosen to just dive solo if others had said they were uncomfortable in diving with her ?

She was found alone, solo. Seems she made an unplanned solo.
 
I hope we can drop the ping-pong about "blaming" now. I assume since Afterdark tried to climb on my neck for confronting him that he may not have intended for it to come across as it did. I'm pretty sure, though that I'm not the only one for whom the message seemed clear.

I'm going to write it off as a miscommunication. I hope everyone else does too.

Getting back to the question of where the buddy was and how they got separated.

What I understand is that when they surfaced, the group was together but Quero was about 10m away from the group.

Her buddy asked her to come closer. Quero declined, answering to the effect, "no, I'll drop down here". The buddy didn't push the issue, deferring, I assume, to Quero's seniority.

The group descended again. One of the other divers was between Quero and her buddy. The buddy says that Quero "angled away" in the direction of the diver who was (informally?) leading. The buddy assumed that Quero had decided to link up with that diver. The diver who was between Quero and her buddy saw Quero swim in a different direction as well and also assumed that Quero had decided to link up with 4th man, who was in that direction.

The 4th man saw three divers to his left and assumed that everyone was together.

Assuming that Quero had linked up with the 4th man, Quero's buddy swam with the diver who was between Quero and her buddy when they descended. They exited together about 5 minutes later. When the 4th man surfaced alone alarm bells went off immediately and the search commenced without delay.

Ok.... so that's what happened.

Obviously there is a lot going on here and some of it certainly contributed to Quero getting separated. The most obvious things that jump out to me are :

- Quero declining to come closer to her buddy when asked
- The buddy accepting that answer
- Assumptions, assumptions and more assumptions, based, (I *suspect*) partly on confusion or "loose" agreement on procedure and descending in a slightly scattered formation.

R..
 
Why is it that we can speculate (indeed it is "offensive" if we do not) and question the diver ad nauseam but it is wrong to consider and speculate regarding the buddies roll in all this?

I think lowviz is referring to the on shore buddy as much or more then the in water buddy.

IF Quero was making all the obvious mistakes that most of the posters have found, why did her buddies not see this and help Quero correct these mistakes before they ever hit the water? Why would they let her dive in a BCD that did not have enough lift for the diving conditions present? It has been noted numerous times that these "buddies" had plenty of experience in these diving conditions.

If they knew (and it seems they did) that Quero had a tendency toward independence, why did they not make sure she was better prepared for possible buddy separation. Or knowing her issues, be more the buddy that AfterDark has experienced? And yes, AfterDark was blasted for even hinting at this.

This is all just pure speculation of course.

And no, I am Not a big proponent of the buddy system. Here is a good example of why. But I do believe that if I see a fellow diver, much less buddy, diving in a truly unsafe manner (and everyone seems to feel this was true of Quero) and not just in a configuration I disagree with, then yes, I would help them adjust their gear or call the dive...

... maybe they figured she was adult enough to make her own decisions ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added October 17th, 2013 at 06:53 AM ----------

in reading here about her seeming determination to do things her way and not accept suggestions, I wonder if she (Quero) would have chosen to just dive solo if others had said they were uncomfortable in diving with her ?

... and therein lies the only potential fault I might find with the buddies ... and a lesson to those who seem to need to find one. If you're not comfortable with the way someone's diving, don't get in the water with them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
IF Quero was making all the obvious mistakes that most of the posters have found, why did her buddies not see this and help Quero correct these mistakes before they ever hit the water? Why would they let her dive in a BCD that did not have enough lift for the diving conditions present? It has been noted numerous times that these "buddies" had plenty of experience in these diving conditions.

Because (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the buddies aren't diving drysuits and therefore couldn't evaluate if Quero's set up has been ok or not and additionaly for a "wetsuit diver" it looked ok from the outside. The possible misjudgements of Quero about her gear that have been pointed out in this thread have been made by divers who know what to look for if you're diving a drysuit.
 
... and therein lies the only potential fault I might find with the buddies ... and a lesson to those who seem to need to find one. If you're not comfortable with the way someone's diving, don't get in the water with them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Yes, and that's a hard one, especially if you like the person as an individual. I have had people I really like but hate diving with and I try to buddy with others or strongly suggest we go same ocean solo so there are no expectations between us.

Back to the overweight issue for a moment.

I hear some people say she was working tweaking her rig but I wonder if she were overweighted on purpose, so that she could be more stable on the bottom to shoot weedy dragons. I know some photog's who use this practice. (?)
 
I hope we can drop the ping-pong about "blaming" now. I assume since Afterdark tried to climb on my neck for confronting him that he may not have intended for it to come across as it did. I'm pretty sure, though that I'm not the only one for whom the message seemed clear

I agree 100% apology accepted.
 
....And no, I am Not a big proponent of the buddy system. Here is a good example of why. But I do believe that if I see a fellow diver, much less buddy, diving in a truly unsafe manner (and everyone seems to feel this was true of Quero) and not just in a configuration I disagree with, then yes, I would help them adjust their gear or call the dive...


It's much easier once an accident has happened to look backward and see all the little things that ended up contributing than to do so beforehand. I recently did 3 dives with an instabuddy. We talked before the first dive. He had been diving a number of years, regularly did local dives, had dived all over the world, and had some decent number of dives in a drysuit, etc. His gear configuration looked fine, same drysuit as me in fact. After the first dive, which went fine, he said he felt overweighted. I asked how much weight he was using and when told responded that it sounded way too high, maybe even 8 pounds too much. I'll admit I did not ask how much weight he was using before the first dive. When diving with an instabuddy that is experienced does everyone always ask how much weight the diver is using? No one has ever asked me.

It's easy now to consider Quero's weight, travel wing, etc. and think it was not a safe combination. I'm not so sure that it was obvious to her buddies before. I seriously doubt those buddies all thought "Well she has unsafe gear but let her dive anyway". I think it's more likely, if not perhaps now in hindsight an incorrect assumption, that they all thought Quero is a very experienced diver, she must know what she is doing.
 
... ...//... ... and therein lies the only potential fault I might find with the buddies ... and a lesson to those who seem to need to find one. ...//...(Grateful Diver)

I've been reading and interpreting the information given as four separated divers and a dive gone bad. One of them experienced a reasonably predictable problem that killed her. What if it were one of the others that experienced some acute problem? I don't see this as three perfect buddies and a muppet like everyone else does. The truth is usally best found by starting from somewhere near the middle, usually leaves one much less ground to cover.

I have said everything that I wish to say in this thread and I'm not looking to get myself banned. With this, I will take my personal biases and leave.
 
Deviating from what's normal isn't always a bad thing ... it's also a logical progression to growth. The trick is understanding what's defined as "normal" ... and why it's defined that way.

When we teach people the "rules" in OW class, we sometimes fail to make it clear why those rules exist, and under what circumstances they apply. Without that knowledge, people can become stunted in terms of progressing as a diver. Or they can ... because they don't understand the "why" behind them ... fail to take them seriously enough or misapply them in a way that leads to bad habits. And what we really need to make clear is that "rules" in this case is shorthand for "rules of thumb" ... easy to remember slogans to help the student learn habits that are appropriate for their level of diving.

Diving is very circumstantial ... every dive is different, and presents you with new stimuli for making decisions. The "rules" don't exist to be followed rigidly ... they're there to give you a foundation for making good decisions. Understanding why they exist helps you know when to apply them, why it matters, and when it's appropriate to make decisions that deviate ... either because the circumstances dictate deviation or because you've grown as a diver to the point where they no longer serve a useful purpose.

I always make it clear to my students not just what the "rules" are ... but why they exist, and under what circumstances it may not be prudent to adhere to them rigidly. In OW class, we are entering a new world ... one we were never designed to be in ... and everything we do requires some measure of mental bandwidth. The purpose of the "rules" is to help keep us safe while we develop our skills and learn to apply our mental capacity in more adaptive ways. As we adapt, some rules no longer make sense ... so we adopt new rules that apply more to the progression of our diving circumstances and goals. "End the dive with 500 psi" is an example ... as we progress to deeper or more aggressive dives, that rule becomes less and less applicable, and we adopt new and better ways to calculate how much reserves we need, and why we need them at that level. It is often the people who never really comprehend why that "rule" existed in the first place who deviate in ways that can become self-destructive.

Comprehension of why the rules matter is key ... because we are constantly deviating, and what matters is deviating in a way that mitigates the additional risks we assume as our diving progresses to new and more aggressive levels.



I'm curious how an instructor can evaluate what their student is doing when they're "leading" in that manner ... when you're up front, you can't even see them. This sounds like a "trust me" approach, where the instructor is relying on you to deal with any problems that might arise with the students. In which case, he's abrogating his responsibility as the instructor to maintain control of the students at all times.

It makes way more sense for the instructor to bring up the rear ... where he or she can keep an eye on what the students are doing. This not only helps the instructor maintain control of the class from a position of constantly monitoring what the students are doing, but it also makes it possible to evaluate the student's progress in real time and pick up on any potential mistakes or bad habits (like hand-waving or kicking their fins into the bottom) that the students may be developing. It's always best to catch those early, so the student can correct them now, rather than having to "unlearn" bad technique at some later point.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
I don't know how they evaluate,either but every class that I've DM'd, which isn't many,but is with different instructors,some private,some with shops,they all do the tours this way. Instructor in front and me sweeping up the rear. Some instructors swim backwards but most don't.
 
How many of us interrogate our buddies about how much lift their BC has, how much weight they are carrying, whether they have redundant buoyancy, etc.? I don't. I can't imagine placing any responsibility for Quero diving an unbalanced rig on the buddies. Unless she was specifically asking for advice and assistance in setting up her equipment, it was her rig to configure. I know it would not really occur to me that an experienced diver with instructor credentials would make such a large error in mismatching lift and weight.

And as far as the separation is concerned . . . I did a dive years ago with two instabuddies who were kind enough to take me on as a third diver, when I showed up at the boat on the entirely wrong day (another story). It turned out that, although these two were long-term buddies, they used the word quite loosely, and paid little attention to one another and were unperturbed when they got separated, despite my best efforts to signal them and get them to close up the distance. I had to choose one to stay with, and I spent the rest of the dive doing nothing but watching him, because it was so clear that he was not going to make any effort at all to see to it that we stayed together. Yes, I'm quite difficult to lose, but it was a miserable dive during which I saw essentially nothing.

If you were diving as a team of four (not recommended, but if you were . . . ) and one of the four persisted in leaving the group, despite being signaled and even just plain asked on the surface to change that behavior, what would you do? If someone WANTS to go off on their own, and insists on doing so despite the group's objections, do you just drag the entire group around behind her? Especially if that diver is a photographer, that may actually be the last thing she wants.

I do think that there is a phenomenon of bowing to someone who is viewed as a "senior" diver. In fact, I know there is, because I've been guilty of it myself. How hard do you push somebody who "outranks" you in training AND experience, when whatever it is they are doing doesn't sit well? I know how hard it is to be the squeaky wheel in that situation, and honestly, this accident drove it home yet again, that when something doesn't feel right, you shouldn't shut up about it. But you can only do so much, and I can easily imagine being in a situation where, having chased a diver who repeatedly refused to stay together enough times, I'd shrug and let them go off. It hasn't happened, but I can imagine it happening.

I find it hard to put much responsibility for this accident on the shoulder of the companions. This diver knew what she was doing, was requested not to do it, and did it anyway.
 
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