Scuba diver dies after being found floating at Kurnell, NSW, Australia

[MXGratefulDiver]

I do understand where you are coming from here. We should watch and understand "Normalization Of Deviance Part 1-4" It really does apply to the situations Scuba Pink is relating to.

I cant find the original video from Utube but have a copy of it if anyone wants to watch it. Its about deviating from whats considered normal, and then accepting the "new" normal. And then deviating again from this "new" normal, etc etc. We can all see where this leads to. Apply also the philosophy "You don't know what you don't know" and this is a clear recipe for disaster.

Deviating from what's normal isn't always a bad thing ... it's also a logical progression to growth. The trick is understanding what's defined as "normal" ... and why it's defined that way.

When we teach people the "rules" in OW class, we sometimes fail to make it clear why those rules exist, and under what circumstances they apply. Without that knowledge, people can become stunted in terms of progressing as a diver. Or they can ... because they don't understand the "why" behind them ... fail to take them seriously enough or misapply them in a way that leads to bad habits. And what we really need to make clear is that "rules" in this case is shorthand for "rules of thumb" ... easy to remember slogans to help the student learn habits that are appropriate for their level of diving.

Diving is very circumstantial ... every dive is different, and presents you with new stimuli for making decisions. The "rules" don't exist to be followed rigidly ... they're there to give you a foundation for making good decisions. Understanding why they exist helps you know when to apply them, why it matters, and when it's appropriate to make decisions that deviate ... either because the circumstances dictate deviation or because you've grown as a diver to the point where they no longer serve a useful purpose.

I always make it clear to my students not just what the "rules" are ... but why they exist, and under what circumstances it may not be prudent to adhere to them rigidly. In OW class, we are entering a new world ... one we were never designed to be in ... and everything we do requires some measure of mental bandwidth. The purpose of the "rules" is to help keep us safe while we develop our skills and learn to apply our mental capacity in more adaptive ways. As we adapt, some rules no longer make sense ... so we adopt new rules that apply more to the progression of our diving circumstances and goals. "End the dive with 500 psi" is an example ... as we progress to deeper or more aggressive dives, that rule becomes less and less applicable, and we adopt new and better ways to calculate how much reserves we need, and why we need them at that level. It is often the people who never really comprehend why that "rule" existed in the first place who deviate in ways that can become self-destructive.

Comprehension of why the rules matter is key ... because we are constantly deviating, and what matters is deviating in a way that mitigates the additional risks we assume as our diving progresses to new and more aggressive levels.

With all my DM training and being involved with students thereafter, it has always been Instructor up front with me at back, "Always". Perhaps its just the instructors or the dive shop, but they have to date when I have been there always run the classes this way. My job is tail end Charlie, suck up all the silt, kicks etc and watch for the stray or the cork or diver in trouble.

I'm curious how an instructor can evaluate what their student is doing when they're "leading" in that manner ... when you're up front, you can't even see them. This sounds like a "trust me" approach, where the instructor is relying on you to deal with any problems that might arise with the students. In which case, he's abrogating his responsibility as the instructor to maintain control of the students at all times.

It makes way more sense for the instructor to bring up the rear ... where he or she can keep an eye on what the students are doing. This not only helps the instructor maintain control of the class from a position of constantly monitoring what the students are doing, but it also makes it possible to evaluate the student's progress in real time and pick up on any potential mistakes or bad habits (like hand-waving or kicking their fins into the bottom) that the students may be developing. It's always best to catch those early, so the student can correct them now, rather than having to "unlearn" bad technique at some later point.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Glenlivet]

Quero's profile says she dives an Aqualung Zuma for travel and tropics. If so, it is a lightweight, back inflate, weight integrated BCD. If I recall correctly, it has 35lbs of lift.

Only the upper 2 of the 4 available sizes. The 2 smaller sizes have 22# of lift. But _all_ of them can take 20# ditchable weight and 10# on the cam bands.

 

[Cave Diver]

WTH?! Cave Diver where you her buddy for that dive?

No, I wasn't her buddy. I wasn't even on the same continent. Your posts just appear to me to place blame. Whether that's intentional, accidental, or by my misinterpretation I don't know, but that's how they read.

 

[rhwestfall]

From what I understand, diver 1 & 2 surfaced together believing she was with diver 3 having seen her swimming in his direction underwater. Diver 3 surfaced a few minutes after 1 & 2 believing she was with 1 & 2 having seen her off to his left towards 1 & 2.

1 & 2 surfaced.. watching for bubbles waiting for Marcia and diver 3 to surface together. Diver 3 surfaced a few minutes later... the search process started immediately on realizing she was unaccounted for.

If this is accurate, then the dive plan lacked proper components, including "whom was diving with whom"....

Based on that, and pure speculation, with no intent to lay blame:

Thats Pre-dive 101 if there is more than two people.... seems overconfidence (perhaps by all, or by one independent) contributed to this.

assumptions, left unstated, are not a good plan.

 

[Peter69_56]

I'm curious how an instructor can evaluate what their student is doing when they're "leading" in that manner ... when you're up front, you can't even see them. This sounds like a "trust me" approach, where the instructor is relying on you to deal with any problems that might arise with the students. In which case, he's abrogating his responsibility as the instructor to maintain control of the students at all times.

It makes way more sense for the instructor to bring up the rear ... where he or she can keep an eye on what the students are doing. This not only helps the instructor maintain control of the class from a position of constantly monitoring what the students are doing, but it also makes it possible to evaluate the student's progress in real time and pick up on any potential mistakes or bad habits (like hand-waving or kicking their fins into the bottom) that the students may be developing. It's always best to catch those early, so the student can correct them now, rather than having to "unlearn" bad technique at some later point.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

The in line process is only to travel from the shallows where some skills have been completed, to deeper water to start the second set of skills. Maybe some 10 m or so. Then additional skills are completed in a group with instructor in front with me behind or variations on this depending on what they chose to do. I do however appreciate your thoughts on picking up bad skills such as swimming rather than finning etc. I usually watch for things like this and report to the instructor, however they do look back as well.

 

[Diver0001]

If this is accurate, then the dive plan lacked proper components, including "whom was diving with whom"....

Based on that, and pure speculation, with no intent to lay blame:

Thats Pre-dive 101 if there is more than two people.... seems overconfidence (perhaps by all, or by one independent) contributed to this.

assumptions, left unstated, are not a good plan.

Agreed.

4 highly experienced divers diving in a group at a fairly shallow "easy" site. It's easy to imagine how -- especially -- a group like that could fall into a complacency pit.

That said, as far as I can remember, I didn't hear any details about the pre-dive planning. It could be that the plan was ok but the execution failed or that the plan wasn't ok. I don't know.

R..

 

[uncfnp]

I need to be most careful with this post as I am already on serious notice in this thread. This must be a truly historic thread as, contrary to all past experience, there is only one side to this story.

Marcia was neither a dive professional nor an experienced diver on those dives. Such should have been evident to the most casual of observers standing on the beach. She was a vacation rookie to these conditions. Her sole mission was to photograph those elusive leafy sea dragons. (Here is where somebody remembers to note that she didn't know what she didn't know.)

All I know is that had she vacationed here in the NE Atlantic to photograph our elusive quahogs, I'd gladly have given up a week's worth of dives to allow her to follow her passion...

I posted no such thing. I bemoaned that she did not have the kind of buddy I've encounter from time to time in that no matter what I did he was always with me. I never asked him too he just did it. I went on to post if she had had a buddy like that she might still be with us.

Just what is so troubling about that? I've had 2 buddies in 43 years of diving that stuck to me like glue. Not my doing not my fault just their way. Don't you think it would have been good if Quero's buddy had been of that nature? No? Why not? I asked where her buddy was, that was all.

WTH?! Cave Diver where you her buddy for that dive?

Why is it that we can speculate (indeed it is "offensive" if we do not) and question the diver ad nauseam but it is wrong to consider and speculate regarding the buddies roll in all this?

I think lowviz is referring to the on shore buddy as much or more then the in water buddy.

IF Quero was making all the obvious mistakes that most of the posters have found, why did her buddies not see this and help Quero correct these mistakes before they ever hit the water? Why would they let her dive in a BCD that did not have enough lift for the diving conditions present? It has been noted numerous times that these "buddies" had plenty of experience in these diving conditions.

If they knew (and it seems they did) that Quero had a tendency toward independence, why did they not make sure she was better prepared for possible buddy separation. Or knowing her issues, be more the buddy that AfterDark has experienced? And yes, AfterDark was blasted for even hinting at this.

This is all just pure speculation of course.

And no, I am Not a big proponent of the buddy system. Here is a good example of why. But I do believe that if I see a fellow diver, much less buddy, diving in a truly unsafe manner (and everyone seems to feel this was true of Quero) and not just in a configuration I disagree with, then yes, I would help them adjust their gear or call the dive...

 

[gypsyjim]

Show me where I laid blame on the buddy. Until you do in my book you are a liar.

Your post: "Many good points being made and possibilities brought up. Question: Where was her buddy?

Now I'm as or more guilty than anyone of not being a good buddy in that I drift off and do my own thing. That said I've had buddies that just will not let me do that. Every time I think "check on X" there he'd be right behind, above and to my right, every time! It was almost annoying. A much better buddy than I. Darn shame she didn't have a buddy like that. "

____________________________________________________________________


It certainly reads as trying to blame the buddy.

I think most of us feel that her staying with her buddy(ies) might have resulted in a different outcome, but whatever happened, it was not a lack of a buddy that killed her on that dive. A buddy might have been able to help, certainly, but she chose herself to abandon the buddy team, and we really do not know what it was that actually caused her death. Everything is still speculation, projection, and looking for answers that we may never find.

No sense taking this thread into the mud, and calling each other names, which is not showing respect for Quero, the others involved, or each other.

 

[Steve_C]

You cannot help those who do not want help.

I will note that in a number of Quero's posts there were comments about as a female not be given appropriate respect for her diving skills. The feeling of a need to prove yourself or be independent is often good but can lead to ignoring advice especially if outside your skill set.

 

[D_B]

in reading here about her seeming determination to do things her way and not accept suggestions, I wonder if she (Quero) would have chosen to just dive solo if others had said they were uncomfortable in diving with her ?