Scuba agencies

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Trace, can you guarantee the quality of instruction by every instructor that teaches through PSAI? No, it is too big of an agency to handle at that level, too many courses, too many instructors, not enough quality control as far as instructor recertification, and student evaluations for their class. It's OK, that is an accepted compromise that most every agency has made because as long as you are trending towards the bullseye, that's all that matters but when you have an agency that size it is going to have outliers.

So what is the yardstick you are using? You're a training director for a well respected agency, what makes yours better, and how do you define your yardstick to justify your measurement?
 
I'll chime in here.

Agency wise, in my experience GUE wins, but that is only after a small sampling of training with 3 other organizations and 5 other instructors.

Lynne posted earlier this year with Dale about Fundies with Guy. There were also a few other Instructors, and Interns (who actually just finished and are now Instructors as of last week).

I've taken training from most of them now, with GUE and non GUE courses outside the 'recreational' realm of OW courses.

Each has their own style, strengths and weaknesses just like every other organization, or group of instructors.

All are very great instruction, and very aligned to what the instruction is, and the end result with slightly different ways to get there.

I know my DPV1 course would have been completely different experience than what it was with a different instructor, but with the same outcome.

Without knowing what you want out of a course to get into the water, I can't recommend the 'best' organization, but I can recommend some excellent instructors who may or may not teach a number of organizations.


BRad
 
I totally agree with tbone, that GUE has the accuracy and the precision. But what if your actual target is different?

When I took my original OW class, there is no way on earth I would have taken a GUE OW class -- had I attempted to do so, I would have quit. I didn't want to dive that much, and I was wholly untalented. Had I needed to reach GUE standards to get an OW card, you would never have heard from me on ScubaBoard, for sure! My class was not a terribly good one, and I have written before that I was passed without having completed everything in the standards, and I had woeful skills. When we have had students like me, we have requested that they do additional dives before getting their cards, which I would have done, had I been asked. BUT . . . the class was within the envelope of time, money, and pressure that I was willing to undergo, and I did it, and the rest is history.

A saying goes, "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.". GUE has a very clear idea of where they are going, but I'm not sure their class is the best entry point for all divers, or even most divers. Once you dive, and have a chance to realize that, like skiing, diving is way more fun if you're good at it, then the commitment in time and money required for GUE classes will come.
 
Lynne, and that was my original point. Just because it is the best, doesn't mean it is the best for you. If you want to learn in sidemount, obviously GUE is the last agency you should look at. If you want to learn rebreathers, they are the last agency you should look at. If you don't have the ability to hold yourself to those types of standards, then it is the last agency you should look at. Lots of other reasons.... That wasn't the question though, that may have been the intention, but it isn't what was asked.
 
Trace, can you guarantee the quality of instruction by every instructor that teaches through PSAI? No, it is too big of an agency to handle at that level, too many courses, too many instructors, not enough quality control as far as instructor recertification, and student evaluations for their class. It's OK, that is an accepted compromise that most every agency has made because as long as you are trending towards the bullseye, that's all that matters but when you have an agency that size it is going to have outliers.

So what is the yardstick you are using? You're a training director for a well respected agency, what makes yours better, and how do you define your yardstick to justify your measurement?

Man, I read this earlier and really hoped I could find a way to answer that wouldn't become a dissertation. I went for a run and a swim thinking about it and to be honest I can't really explain it with brevity other than just give you a compass point toward the direction my mind is going.

An agency holds value for divers seeking training, its professional members, and for the diving community as a whole.

From the training perspective, we can measure an agency by the education it does not provide as well as the education it does provide. If you could only be trained by one agency would GUE be it? Where would that leave freedivers, solo divers, and sidemount divers? For some people, these activities hold little interest. For others, the value is priceless.

For proponents of GUE the argument usually comes down to something like this. The helicopter is the most versatile aircraft in the sky. It can go forward, backward, rotate around 360 degrees, provide a stable platform and do more work. They fair better in crashes and helicopter pilots tend to have more flight hours. Therefore, the only aircraft you'll ever need is a helicopter. In fact, if you go to an aircraft message board you'll hear almost the same argument between pilots as occurs among divers.

The only difference is that no one in those message boards has devalued the skill of fixed-wing pilots like divers tend to devalue those not diving "fundies" style. In the first few minutes of the DIR 3 video George Irvine, Bill Mee, and our Dan Volker talk about how there is no higher plain of diving and give accolades to resort instructors for the exemplary buoyancy, skill and weightless diving they do. What agency do you think most resort divemasters and instructors belong to, if not solely, at least in part?

So, yes, helicopters are awesome unless you want to go skydiving (freediving), fly a Cessna (average recreational rig), or fly a biplane (sidemount). GUE is one of the best helicopter training agencies. No doubt. Who do you go to for freediving? PFI? Now, you need 2 agencies to make you a complete diver?

What value does GUE hold for a professional? This really comes down to individual choice since I know many GUE certified divers who became instructors or divemasters with other agencies for almost as many reasons as there are agencies. Quality control? This can be debated in a variety of ways. For example, is an agency made stronger or weakened by the diversity and experience of its instructor corps? Proponents of GUE argue that the lack of diversity is the strength. Argument over. Or, is it?

How has GUE impacted the diving industry as a whole? Has this impact been positive or negative? Or, both? How successful has the organization been in carrying out its mission statement? Exploration opportunities? Research benefits? Training? In the opinion of some, the organization has had great success in their mission statement. In the opinion of others, the organization failed or only marginally succeeded at one end, but exploded in success at another. The two most unprofessional instructors I've ever met were GUE. They are no longer with GUE so you can say that is a quality control victory. Nonetheless, it negatively impacted my personal feelings and joy of diving with GUE divers.

Look, I like GUE and GUE has had a positive impact on my diving, but has had an negative impact on my sanity. :) I have the greatest respect for JJ, the founding members, and the organization. But, I also like PADI. You wouldn't know it because of the "bashing" I get accused of doing, but I see people taking sides in diving like liberals & conservatives in politics and I tend to remind folks there is always the moderate viewpoint - which might be better for most. The porridge is too hot. The porridge is too cold. The porridge is just right - for me. I think most people can say that. Some like hot porridge and some like cold better.

In sociology, I learned that once you change your perspective and change the yardstick by which you measure you can arrive at two completely different results.

The United States of America is a great country - unless you were a native American. Then, the USA was a treaty-breaking lying murdering stinking pile of buffalo s#!t. But, compared to Nazi Germany the USA is much better - unless Custer killed all the women and children in your village. Then, a 19th century Sioux and a 20th century Jew could compare notes.

The yardstick by which most proponents of GUE measure the organization is by trim, buoyancy, propulsion skills, teamwork, standardized gases and equipment and a small instructor cadre. Good stuff!

But, another person might measure an agency by the fact that it has programs for freediving, sidemount, solo, etc., and still find the quality of training and quality of professionalism of the instructors. For example, I've never met an unprofessional PADI instructor. Most PADI instructors I've met all seem the same with the exception of those engaged in tech or cave diving and most of these have trained and taught with multiple agencies. Tech agencies (GUE, UTD, NSS-CDS, PSAI) tend to front load skills because of the cave diving concept. You get your buoyancy first then you swim and get to learn a skill like navigation. Most recreational agencies you swim and work on your buoyancy, trim, propulsion while you build experience and get better at diving.

GUE was an important part of my growth as a diver. But, I cannot make distinctions. In my experience, having been certified with so many agencies at so many levels only the instructors mattered. I honestly only refer people to instructors I know or whose results I've seen by diving with their students. Doesn't matter what agency - even my own.
 
I was told by a GUE instructor that they forgot to put a space in the term fundies. It was supposed to read 'Fun Dies'. :D If the target of your diving is fun, then GUE may not be the best agency for you. I've heard of more people leaving in tears from those classes than any other. In fact, it might not be represented by any of the targets from an earlier post. DIR, GUE and UTD were born out of expedition diving and they retain that discipline and mindset throughout their program. They're an extreme version of diving and while they may deserve some superlatives, 'best' is not one I would use. I dive to have fun.
 
Brilliant post Trace, I was hoping for a dissertation, it's the only way to convey that. So, I still stand by my original post that if you want the absolute best fundamental training in diving, a GUE rec 1 card is the only card that I know of where you know exactly what that diver is going to look like. To my engineer brain, that makes them the best despite me disagreeing with what is probably the two biggest fundamental concepts they have, team diving, and standardized rig. At this level, the long term aspirations of the diver in my opinion are pretty irrelevant because I firmly believe that if your foundation is solid, you can build whatever you want on top of it.

Example, I am trained by NAUI, through a university, by one of the original cave divers in NFL, and that makes me broken. I was trained in a Halcyon Eclipse, with Apeks regs set up to donate primary with a suicide strap. It was two years in my diving career before I ever had to wear a stab jacket/use a traditional regulator setup *working at Seacamp*. I could perform all of the necessary skills to pass fundies with a tech pass once I got my Nitrox Diver card, we had to do them in order to pass our basic class, some were actually worse, mainly the swim being longer, the underwater swim being longer, and having to do a full ditch and don to demonstrate comfort underwater. I don't understand basic OW courses because I don't understand how they can allow divers out at the skill level they're at. To me it is a disgrace, but again, I'm broken because we don't know what we don't know. I don't know what it is like to be one of those divers because I never was.

As an agency for this specific question, I stand by my point. If you want the absolute best most consistent training in the world, that is the only agency that can make that claim. If you want the most diverse agency as far as what they teach, if you want an agency you can grow with as a diver with aspirations of professional certs, if you have interest in CCR/sidemount, yes there are other agencies out there that would be better for long term growth, but I still think that no agency puts out divers like GUE does every single time and for that, they can make that claim because of the precision in the agency. Now, we can go back to my bullseyes. Do I think GUE is both precise and accurate? Yes for their bullseye, they know exactly what they want and they do it. I think their bullseye is a little off from mine because I dive sidemount, I believe in CCR's, I believe in adapting your gear to the goals at hand, I don't believe in long hoses unless in an overhead, I believe independent doubles have their place, and I am a FIRM believer in solo diving. So I have 0 interest in GUE as an agency, they don't work for me. Yours does, NAUI almost does, IANTD does, so those are better fits for me personally, but I wouldn't be able to make that decision if my fundamentals weren't as solid as they are, and only an agency like GUE can guarantee that quality of training to a new diver. Sure other agencies can do it, but unless you know the specific instructor, you can't know for sure.

You said it yourself, "doesn't matter what agency, even my own". That implies that you acknowledge that your weakest instructors are not as strong as other agencies strongest instructors. Your agency is not precise, that means there is room for improvement, and I realistically don't believe any agency other than GUE can claim that they are precise. Accurate, yes, but no one else can claim precise. I'm an engineer, precision is everything, accurate is irrelevant. You can be accurate, but if you aren't precise, the process is out of control. If you are precise but not accurate you have a lot better shot of improving accuracy than you do if you are trying to become more precise. It takes a lot of work to get precise, it doesn't take a lot of work to get the accuracy, but man does it take a massive effort to get the precision down.

Thanks for your post, it really helps to explain your point of view, and I think we agree on a grand scale that in the short term it is find the best instructor for you, and in a professional aspect it is find the best agency for you, but that wasn't the question....
 
I'm not trying to butt into the conversation too much outside what I already have posted.

I agree mostly with what Trace and TBone have just posted, but substantially disagree to a very small margin about what is said as well.

Rant

I dive primarily with GUE/DIR (wether that be GUE/interested, UTD, TDI, 'tech' minded, etc and fully non interested 'rec') divers all the time on the left coast.

So far, every (yes EVERY) time I do a dive locally (within a 6hr drive) near my home province with a fellow diver, regardless of the organization or training, I run into issues on the dive that I wouldn't have with any other GUE diver.

Last weekend, I decided to dive with a fairly experienced side mount diver (PADI/TDI). During our reluctant (it felt) pre dive talk, I asked about his hoses and how he dives his tanks (so as I know what to expect if in the case of an OOG situation - the first skill taught in my PADI OW course - receiving and donating gas under water, ie the worst 'typical' situation one would be faced underwater).

He replied, I have a long hose on my right, but want to change it out for a short hose, as 'OOG never happens'. He also replied 1/3s (after 1/6) but 1/2s work great with these tanks.

With GUE, heck even my first dive with PADI, the first skills we learn/demonstrate is how to get/find gas, how to receive gas, and how to DONATE gas..

Here I am diving with a person in sidemount, looking to change their rig in order to NOT share gas in the very rare occurrence of an OOG situation.

We got in the water, I did a modified S Drill (showing that your donating hose is fully deployable), the response was 'mines on top' (it wasn't, being restricted by his bungied second)....

The dive was uneventful, aside from the first few minutes of him a swimming feverishly fast ahead, deeper than we discussed (on a richer mix), and ignoring any sense of light communication. To the point of me giving the thumb after finally chasing him down in 5m viz after grabbing his fin, and them him giving an OK (after a few minutes of signalling with my light) and swimming away than after another minute, giving me a shrug if the shoulder as 'really?'

I was ready to send up a blob and end my dive and tell his wife he's somewhere down there, but didn't for 2 reasons.
1, Don't leave someone behind
2. His wife 'knows' if a SMB is deployed, to call 911

I don't break the first reason. Nor ever intend to.

Needless to say, another (of many) 'local' diver on the infamous 'Stroke' list.

/rant on the majority of local divers I encounter (and on 'vacation') in the greatest diver per capita province/city .....

BRad
 
48 posts of "my agency is better than your agency" with no sign of the OP?

Could anyone blame him if he just took his wife bowling instead, after reading all this nonsense?
 

Back
Top Bottom