Saw this at the quarry today

[Sideband]

This is just to show how we got to where we were and why.

I was helping out with an OW class out at the quarry today and we were doing our first 'excursion' dive after the students did their skills. Vis was terrible, less than 10 feet, and we decided to just follow the rope line from the platform to the rock crusher. When we got there I asked my group to give their air pressure and since one guy was down to about 800lbs I signaled to turn. I gave both the "T" and the little circlewith the finger but I guess two of the four didn't know what that meant and started to surface. I didn't want to leave them up there alone so I and the other two also surfaced. When the other instructor looked and saw us all heading for the top he brought up his group as well.
This is where the kind of scary bit happened. As we were all up there I looked over and saw a guy that wasn't a part of our group. What appeared to be his buddy was trying to do a surface dive with an inflated BC and was splashing around. When I looked back at the guy I noticed he had his mask off and appeared to be having trouble breathing. I asked if he was OK and he confirmed my thought by saying he was having trouble breathing. I started towards him to make sure his BC was inflated and noticed...he wasn't wearing it. He had it held out at arms length. I asked if I could help and he said no and started to move away from me. I got our groups instructors attention and said he better check this guy out. Once he saw the guy he immediatly broke off from the class and asked the guy if he was all right.(by now he was hyper-ventalating) He said again that he was having trouble breathing. Our instructor said, "I can help you." and the guy started to move away from him as well. Through all of this the 'buddy' is still splashing with her face in the water and is not paying a bit of attention. We offered help again and were told no so we went back to our group. The guy made it back to land I guess because we never heard anything else about it.

The buddy needed to be slapped. I feel that maybe I should have followed him back to shore or something but short of getting behind him and getting him in a chin tow there wasn't much I could do. I'm not sure if he had on a weight belt or if he had integrated weights, but he seemed to be buoyant. His BC was floating at the surface so there was some additional buoyancy there if he needed it. I'm not rescue certified so I didn't want to jump in and make things worse but I still feel I should have done something. At the time I felt that my getting an instructors attention was good enough, and maybe for my current skill level it was. I don't know. It kind of spooked me. Not bad or anything as I did 5 more dives including my first night dive, but it was my first experience with someone else in 'real' trouble as opposed to the mock ooa's, etc. done in class.

Thoughts? Opinions?
Joe

 

[Snowbear]

I was helping out with an OW class out at the quarry today
...
I'm not rescue certified so I didn't want to jump in and make things worse...

??Helping w/ OW class? Not rescue trained (therefore most likely not DM or AI trained)? Don't want to make things worse?
Just curious - what is/was your assistance role in this OW class?

Sounds like you did the right thing getting the instructor's attention and stayed out of the way.

 

[Sideband]

I'm a 'professional extra dive buddy" to make odd classes even. That, and I stand on the road and send students into the water as the instructor calls for them. On excursion dives I buddy up with either an instructor, AI or DM if there is an even number of students or with a student if they have an odd man out. I help fill tanks off the truck between dives, help hand out and check in equipment, lug lead around before and after buoyancy checks... Trust me, it's all above board. Our class of eight this weekend has 2 full instructors, 2 AIs and a DM. We always have far more supervision in the water than is required and they don't have or let me do anything beyond my abilities or beyond what I 'should be doing'.

Joe

 

[Rick Murchison]

I'm a 'professional extra dive buddy" to make odd classes even. That, and I stand on the road and send students into the water as the instructor calls for them. On excursion dives I buddy up with either an instructor, AI or DM if there is an even number of students or with a student if they have an odd man out. I help fill tanks off the truck between dives, help hand out and check in equipment, lug lead around before and after buoyancy checks... Trust me, it's all above board. Our class of eight this weekend has 2 full instructors, 2 AIs and a DM. We always have far more supervision in the water than is required and they don't have or let me do anything beyond my abilities or beyond what I 'should be doing'.

Joe

This isn't a thread hijack! But I gotta say... Joe's got the bug! He's hooked...
------------------
Now, back on subject...
Folks who get themselves into trouble and reject help are common. You basically have three options
(1) leave 'em in the stew of their own making as they request and hope they extricate themselves
(2) Force help on 'em
(3) Stick around for awhile and see if they change their mind or improve their situation to the point you're comfortable they aren't going to win a Darwin award.
I can't tell you which is the correct response because it is so situationally dependent. From your description of the situation here, about the only thing different I might have done ("might" is the operable word here - depends on my evaluation of the situation) would have been to ask something along the lines of "do you know why you're having trouble breathing?" and see what he said... and then go from there.
Y'all probably did the right thing. In fact, success is the best measure, so you did do the right thing.
If I did think he were actually in trouble - with you, two AI's and a DM with my eight students, I'd have peeled the DM off with instructions to watch the guy until he was sure he was ok.
Rick

 

[Charlie99]

Rick's comments are right on target. Definitely stay around, even if you aren't actively intervening, until the diver either resolves his problem or the problem cascades to the point where intervention is clearly called for.

2 minor additions: In addition to hanging around a while, I'd also go grab the buddy and call his attention to the situation. That also is a good excuse for hanging around a bit longer.

If the diver had his BC off and was still wearing his weightbelt, one possible course of action is to offer to take his weightbelt for him. You can then decide whether to hang on to it, clip it off onto his BC, or simply ditch it.

 

[Mako Mark]

well these guys sound like they really shouldnt be allowed out of the house unsuupervised, but I guess I would have to agree with Rick, with that amount of supervision around, someone should have probably kept an eye on them to protect them from themselves. The thing is that this type of situation can turn from embarrasing to life threatening in the blink of an eye.

 

[SquattingRadishDM]

Firstly I am glad I have found a place to discuss topics such as this.

I would agree entirely with the two comments above. I have encountered divers who dont want help in a situation mainly because they dont want to loose face. Some divers tend to be macho and it seems would rather drown than accept help.

If you are dealing with someone like this its probably best to get someone who knows them (normally, and probably in this case the buddy) on your side. The unwillingness to cooperate with you, could probably have been overcome with the help of the buddy. Unfortunatly it sounds like this guys buddy was a buddy by name but not by nature.

I would have done what Charlie99 suggested. Alert the buddy to the situation and hang around just in case.

As an after thought, If you are gonna be assisting with classes you will encounter situations where action is necessary. Even though it sounds like there are plenty of other qualified people around in your case I would recommend taking a Rescue Diver course. I found Rescue Diver changed the way I dived, with greater awareness and spotting situations much earlier. I became much more able and confident to handle a crisis.

Keep diving and keep learning!

-Jack

 

[verona]

JOe - I would think you should definitely do Rescue if you are helping out and then move onto your DM .Sounds like you are doing some DM stuff out of water in any case. The carrying equipment bit sounds pretty familiar!! If you are helping out, presumably the instructor can give you a reasonable deal - instruction for work?

Re your situation in the water, not sure there was much else to do except maybe hang about in case things turned much more serious

 

[Gary D.]

We run across situtations like this more often that we would like both in and out of the water.

If they are in the water and refuse help we just hang around until they are out of fight then pitch in to help.

If they are on land it's basicly the same thing. Take a suicide attempt for example. They are there bleeding or waiting for pills to work and refusing help. OK, no help until they pass out then we move in and save their silly butt.

Dirt bags that have fought us and run into the lake to get away is another good one. Most of the time we can get a marine boat to stay close to them but not always. When they poop out and want into the boat it's nope, stay wet for a while longer. Only when we know the fight is out of them will we bring them on-board.

Sounds cruel but we didn't put these people into these situtations. Diving in to soon can save them but in the process can cost you your life. Not a fair trade in my family's book.

You can be as big and as strong as a pro football lineman but a 90 pound paniced person will kick your butt in an attempt to save their butt. Little people cause a lot of big people death's.

When in doubt let them pass out first. And NEVER let them get into a position to get ahold of you ANYWHERE. You do the hanging on. They grab you get away asap.

It's better for you to go home and see the family than the family coming to see you off at a memorial.

Gary D.

 

[wolf eel]

I agree with everybody who said you should have stayed around. I am still confused with how you where helping a class. That is what a DM is for. Your instructor should have told you or somebody else to go and get the dive buddy as you will find your dive buddy will often dive along thinking all is good. His or her dive buddy should have helped out his/her partner. It would have been much better as the frantic divers knows the other diver and would have gladly communicated with that person over everybody else.

I have to ask how can you be a "PRO" helper without training. That is what the training does it gives you the foundations to be "PRO help" If in your case there are multi people in the water stay with the confussed diver and direct others to get the buddy to be aware of what is going on. Then decide if the buddy is compatent to help if not then take control of the situation leaving them to there own is as bad as the buddy face down with out a clue. That situation could have become extremly bad. I am very glad you did something but you also could have been put into a very bad place just being in the water with out any real training. With a O/W class you may have had a paniced diver and with out training you both would have been in trouble. I do not mean this in a bad way to you but your instructor is in the same place as the buddy for the other diver in your own words " should have been slapped" well same goes for an instructor that has O/W tickets helping in no viss situations. Both should have been slapped. You have no right being in the water with new divers. I know all kinds of people will not agree but the trianing you get is what keeps you alive. Take the course and learn when to help and when not to. And what to do. And please do not let people pass out if it can be avoided we are not the bad guys. Communication is everything start to talk with the person take control and never let them pass out as they may drown for NO reason. In courses you may take in the future you will be taught how to deal with a paniced diver (not a bad guy or scumb bag or anything like that) just a diver. Never make a paniced diver swim around your boat Never let somebody hypox out if you can help it never ever let somebody drown because you are afraid they may bring you down that is the point of a rescue diver is to rescue not recover. (that last bit was not for you) never be a coward take the training so you can save somebodys sorry ass as it could be your sorry ass in trouble because of tech problems and the last thing you want is to hypox out then pass out then sink in a hole nobody can see you.
Cheers
Derek