Save the Goliath Grouper!

[scubadada]

Palm Beach Co is excluded, a small victory.

I wish I knew where all the GG in the Palm Beach aggregation came from.

 

[Pipehorse]

It is likely that we have trained the GG to steal a speared fish....since that is what we did with sharks and morays and lionfish. Unfortunately, for the lionfish training, all we really did was train the predators to follow and hassle the divers because that way they'd get an easy meal. This is documented and published.

So please remind me why we want to punish the GG for a behavior that we taught them?

Regardless of whether they were taught the behavior or learned it themselves, its the height of human arrogance to expect an apex predator not to take advantage of a meal that is practically served to them on a plate. This goes back about ten posts where I said it is deep seated in the human psyche to eliminate apex predators because we (humans) don't like the competition. Thusly the bogus argument that the GG fishery needs opening to cull GG because they steal fish from fisherman.

 

[Belzelbub]

Though I am not a hunter, I assume that scuba hunters also pay for fish licenses and lobster licenses. How does this fit into the overall equation of income to the state for fishing?

Correct. In order to harvest fish recreationally, a license of some sort is generally required. There are exceptions for children, seniors. There is no spearfishing license, it’s just a fishing license. A standard fishing license comes with some exceptions. Snook and lobster, for example require purchase of an additional stamp on top of the license.

That said, even with a regular fishing license with appropriate stamps, there is a list of species that are off-limits to spearfishing. So, even though I can’t target certain species, I don’t get a discount for primarily spearing.

So, spearfishing, whether scuba or free, is included in the overall saltwater licensing income. Though, since it’s the same license, it’s impossible to determine how many licenses are sold for spearfishing vs. h&l.

 

[johndiver999]

Regardless of whether they were taught the behavior or learned it themselves, its the height of human arrogance to expect an apex predator not to take advantage of a meal that is practically served to them on a plate. This goes back about ten posts where I said it is deep seated in the human psyche to eliminate apex predators because we (humans) don't like the competition. Thusly the bogus argument that the GG fishery needs opening to cull GG because they steal fish from fisherman.

You seem to be sticking to the "apex predator" term. You are apparently ill-informed.

As I tried to make clear previously, jewfish (and sharks) do steal a lot of speared and hooked fish. Also sharks will eat fish that are under-sized and released by fisherman. Anyone who argues that this is rare is uninformed and not "too salty".

I heard at the dive shop yesterday, that in Palm Beach, divers are starting to see sharks with bullet holes in them. I assumed that was from spearfisherman, but I was told it was angry hook and line fisherman who lose a considerable amount of their catch to sharks. I personally have not seen evidence of wounded sharks.

Opening a fishery as a means for retribution against jewfish for their learned behavior of stealing fish makes no sense. Re-opening a fishery that has made remarkable recovery in 30 years, is something entirely different. Why should it be opened? - because a limited harvest of this resource is sustainable.

 

[greeniguana]

Regardless of whether they were taught the behavior or learned it themselves, its the height of human arrogance to expect an apex predator not to take advantage of a meal that is practically served to them on a plate. This goes back about ten posts where I said it is deep seated in the human psyche to eliminate apex predators because we (humans) don't like the competition. Thusly the bogus argument that the GG fishery needs opening to cull GG because they steal fish from fisherman.

Huh? Eliminate apex predators because we don't like competition????

Some rich guys just want to eat a few. Sheesh.

This thread is turning into one of those Sarah Mclaughlin SPCA commercials.

 

[HalcyonDaze]

You seem to be sticking to the "apex predator" term. You are apparently ill-informed.

As I tried to make clear previously, jewfish (and sharks) do steal a lot of speared and hooked fish. Also sharks will eat fish that are under-sized and released by fisherman. Anyone who argues that this is rare is uninformed and not "too salty".

I heard at the dive shop yesterday, that in Palm Beach, divers are starting to see sharks with bullet holes in them. I assumed that was from spearfisherman, but I was told it was angry hook and line fisherman who lose a considerable amount of their catch to sharks. I personally have not seen evidence of wounded sharks.

Opening a fishery as a means for retribution against jewfish for their learned behavior of stealing fish makes no sense. Re-opening a fishery that has made remarkable recovery in 30 years, is something entirely different. Why should it be opened? - because a limited harvest of this resource is sustainable.

The "not an apex predator" bit is correct - from old catch data and more recent stomach content analyses, goliath grouper primarily feed on smaller slow-moving benthic animals such as burrfish and crabs. If I recall, in the more recent gut content analyses other snappers and groupers made up less than 3% of what was found, and the old-timers who used to spearfish for them could never recall finding any (although they did find spots with goliaths were also abundant with snappers, groupers, snook, etc.). It takes more than size to make an "apex predator;" the term defines a predator feeding at upper trophic levels (e.g., bull sharks or great hammerheads feeding on blacktips).

That said, goliath grouper and sharks will quite readily take hooked and speared fish within reach. I wouldn't call that being "trained;" any opportunistic predator will take advantage of crippled prey. Now, whether that's just nature in action or an affront to a human's assumed first dibs on anything in the ocean is a matter of opinion. I've definitely seen plenty of bullet holes and spear wounds in sharks and to a lesser extent goliath grouper off Palm Beach; the most drastic have been sharks with obvious shotgun wounds to the head. Anyone who claims this is not primarily about depredation either has their head in the sand or is gaslighting: Goliath Grouper harvest approved by FWC - The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum

Also a matter of opinion is whether a limited harvest is sustainable. FWRI tried to produce a stock assessment by the book three or four times in the past 20 years and they were all thrown out in peer review (with probable good reason; as I recall FWRI assumed peak harvest in FL was ~250,000 lbs per year when anecdotes from commercial spearfishers suggest just a handful of boats out of the Palm Beach/Jupiter/Hobe Sound area were bringing in up to ~500,000 lbs per year). After that they got pressured by the commission into developing a set of "alternative metrics" (gee, where have I heard a term like that before ...) that weren't actually "metrics" in the sense of having fixed targets for recovery ("increase in abundance on natural reefs," "increase in genetic diversity," etc.); FWRI has admitted to the commission that they either do not have the data for those metrics or have not seen progress on them. Suggesting that a limited harvest will help data collection is a joke; fin clips, measurements, tissue samples, etc. can all be taken nonlethally from catch and release. FWC blatantly cut corners pushing this through and it's telling they have zero independent scientific backing for this.

 

[tursiops]

.

 

[johndiver999]

The "not an apex predator" bit is correct - from old catch data and more recent stomach content analyses, goliath grouper primarily feed on smaller slow-moving benthic animals such as burrfish and crabs......

That said, goliath grouper and sharks will quite readily take hooked and speared fish within reach. I wouldn't call that being "trained;" any opportunistic predator will take advantage of crippled prey. ....

I agree with most of what you have written except the part about training. There are very obvious and indisputable differences in behavior of jewfish when encountered by spearfisherman. In areas where spearfishing is common the jewfish will often follow a diver and quickly snap up a speared fish. They often will instantly attack and have learned to anticipate the sound of a speargun.

In areas where spearfishing is infrequent, the jewfish act very different. They are shy, they will back in under large ledges and they appear to have essentially zero interest in spearfishing activity and speared fish.

In some places it is VERY difficult to land a fish and in others, a spearfisherman can pretty much ignore the GG and have near zero worries about them "stealing" a fish off a speargun shaft or from a stringer. I can think of no reason (other than training) to explain this geographic difference in behavior that can vary so dramatically over a distance of just 30 miles.

 

[CuzzA]

I don't believe most of the people in this thread are actual Florida divers. The evidence doesn't support it. Most likely just tourist divers that dive the same spots their cattle boats take them to. There also seems to be a lack of common sense regarding this proposed take. If anyone thinks someone is going to pay $500 for a tiny jewfish they are either dumb or trolling. Which is it?

 

[Pipehorse]

You seem to be sticking to the "apex predator" term. You are apparently ill-informed.

As I tried to make clear previously, jewfish (and sharks) do steal a lot of speared and hooked fish. Also sharks will eat fish that are under-sized and released by fisherman. Anyone who argues that this is rare is uninformed and not "too salty".

I heard at the dive shop yesterday, that in Palm Beach, divers are starting to see sharks with bullet holes in them. I assumed that was from spearfisherman, but I was told it was angry hook and line fisherman who lose a considerable amount of their catch to sharks. I personally have not seen evidence of wounded sharks.

Opening a fishery as a means for retribution against jewfish for their learned behavior of stealing fish makes no sense. Re-opening a fishery that has made remarkable recovery in 30 years, is something entirely different. Why should it be opened? - because a limited harvest of this resource is sustainable.

I am going to stick with apex predator. They are at the top of the trophic pyramid along with sharks, i.e. the only animal out there capable of killing and eating a Goliath Grouper is another Goliath Grouper, sharks, or man. It's apparent you have little understanding of trophic levels.