Save the Goliath Grouper!

[greeniguana]

Following is quoted from email I received this afternoon:

FWC2021

FWC approves a draft proposal for limited, highly regulated harvest of goliath grouper

At its October meeting, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) approved a draft proposal for a limited, highly regulated harvest of goliath grouper in Florida state waters. Staff were directed to explore additional changes before bringing the proposal back for final approval at the March 2022 meeting.

If approved in March, this proposal would provide additional stakeholder access to goliath while continuing to allow access through catch-and-release, ecotourism and dive viewing opportunities.

“I think we are going to learn a lot through the process, while continuing to promote continued rebuilding of the population,” said FWC Chairman Rodney Barreto.

“Conservation is not about closing a resource forever; it’s about closing it as a management measure and giving access back when we can,” said Commissioner Robert Spottswood. “I believe we are at this point, and it is a small and productive step in the right direction.”

The proposed draft rules include:

A recreational harvest of up to 200 goliath per year, with a maximum of 50 from Everglades National Park. Requiring a recreational goliath harvest permit and tag, issued via a random-draw lottery, to legally harvest a goliath (staff will explore setting the cost of the tag, currently proposed to be $500, based on the cost of managing the program). Limiting harvest to one fish per person per open season with permit and tag. A March 1 through May 31 season. Allowable gear would be hook-and-line. A slot limit of 20 to 36 inches total length (staff will explore raising the slot minimum size limit to 22 or 24 inches total length). Harvest would be permitted in all state waters except those of Palm Beach County south through the Atlantic coast of the Keys (staff will update the proposal to include Martin County). Harvesters would also be subject to post-harvest requirements.

In addition, staff will explore modifying gear regulations to minimize impacts from catch-and-release fishing on goliath grouper spawning aggregations.

The FWC will continue to monitor the status of the stock using alternative metrics approved by the Commission in 2018.

The FWC will also continue ongoing efforts that recognize goliath’s role in the ecosystem and promote stock rebuilding.

Learn more about goliath grouper at MyFWC.com/Marine by clicking on “Recreational Regulations” and “Goliath Grouper” under the “Reef Fish” tab.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

My understanding is that at 20 to 36 inches they are still in the mangroves? I don't think I have ever seen one that size on a dive.

I saw a small one in that range in summer 2020 on Tunnels in Jupiter. You can see it near the end of this 1 min video. It was close to the upper size limit but it definitely seemed less than 36”. It was the smallest GG I’d ever seen on a dive. It was hanging out inside the ‘tunnel’ and up high near the ceiling. That’s the only time though I recall seeing one that small out on the reef.

 

[Blues Runner]

Please let us be.......

 

[johndiver999]

They have proposed to allow only the rich to harvest this food resource from the ocean. Cost per lb of meat will be on the order of $100. Why should only the elite be allowed to fish in god’s creation under this proposal?

I still have my doubts that many people will want to eat the meat of these juveniles that badly. They can continue to catch and release all they want, but if they want to take the fish home it will be quite expensive. How much bragging rights can a person acrue by killing a juvenile that is much smaller than the legal size for a black or gag grouper?

 

[HalcyonDaze]

They have proposed to allow only the rich to harvest this food resource from the ocean. Cost per lb of meat will be on the order of $100. Why should only the elite be allowed to fish in god’s creation under this proposal?

I still have my doubts that many people will want to eat the meat of these juveniles that badly. They can continue to catch and release all they want, but if they want to take the fish home it will be quite expensive. How much bragging rights can a person acrue by killing a juvenile that is much smaller than the legal size for a black or gag grouper?

If food or trophy fishing was the idea, this proposal wouldn't have gotten any traction. It's all complaints about depredation in hooked/speared fish and the ignorant perception that they eat smaller grouper and snapper. I've watched interviews with old time commercial spearfishers who used to bring in 100,000-500,000 pounds of goliaths through Palm Beach Inlet per year; as they recalled they never found grouper or snapper in them (and were often able to shoot a good haul of other fish species on sites that were loaded with goliaths). And still yesterday a rec charter fisherman who drove over from the southwest coast argued they had to go because they were "eating all the other gamefish."

 

[Jaan]

In this article: The proposal remains tentative until a second vote in March 2022, and probably would not effect until 2023, according to agency spokesperson Amanda Nalley. Meanwhile, the agency continues to gather public comment, which people can submit at myfwc.com/saltwatercomments

Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/article254809057.html#storylink=cpy

I know we can't have them grow out of control but I just can't see how someone could see any sport in killing these big slow moving fellows. I also don't see that many around to suggests that they are out of control or anything. Wonder how they know the numbers have rebounded. Did a group from here go to see the spawning this year? Are there really growing numbers?

 

[HalcyonDaze]

In this article: The proposal remains tentative until a second vote in March 2022, and probably would not effect until 2023, according to agency spokesperson Amanda Nalley. Meanwhile, the agency continues to gather public comment, which people can submit at myfwc.com/saltwatercomments

Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/article254809057.html#storylink=cpy

I know we can't have them grow out of control but I just can't see how someone could see any sport in killing these big slow moving fellows. I also don't see that many around to suggests that they are out of control or anything. Wonder how they know the numbers have rebounded. Did a group from here go to see the spawning this year? Are there really growing numbers?

I think what shifted the commission this time was that the revised proposal targets juveniles and excludes the main dive tourism areas (Palm Beach through Atlantic side of the Keys and Dry Tortugas, with Martin County potentially also being put off limits). The majority of the speakers against a harvest yesterday were Palm Beach dive charter owners, divers, or photographers (plus Spencer Slate drove up from the Keys and Bob Harris from DEMA flew in), and most of them primarily expressed concerns about how this would affect the Palm Beach aggregations. I think that allowed the commissioners to just pigeonhole their concerns as being outside the geographical and size limits of the proposed harvest. A number of dive operators did state that they saw fewer adults at the spawning sites this year, but outside of the comments session that was disputed.

What mostly concerns me is how the commission just rolled over and said "we trust our staff at FWRI," despite myself and others reminding them that FWRI's opinion is not supported by outside researchers, nor have they met the data collection requirements devised in-house. Unfortunately the heavy academic firepower wasn't there to issue direct rebuttals (the meeting itself was sparsely attended, with only 20 speakers on the goliath issue). While even the folks arguing against a harvest express a lot of respect for Gil McRae and Jessica McCawley, I do have to wonder how hard they are going to push back when the chair of the commission says "I've been trying to get goliaths reopened for 15 years" and asks them to draft a harvest rule. It doesn't look good for FWC, and it's not a good precedent to set.

 

[tursiops]

This appeared today on a professional scientific forum:
----------------------------------------
Today, in denial of all scientific evidence that shows the species is still endangered, with adult populations declining, the FWC Commissioners approved the draft rule to kill Goliath Grouper.

This is in violation of the 1990 federal and state moratorium on harvest.

The Commissioners requested some changes, so FWC staff will gather them and return with the final rule for the public hearing in March 2022.

The goal is to start killing in 2023.

If any of our NOAA friends are reading this message…. This is your time to take action.

During the meeting, the scientific evidence presented against the draft take rule was very solid. Also, the majority of public comment, from scientists, SCUBA diving organizations, even recreational fishing organizations, was against the take. I also know that several of the people on this list submitted public comments prior to the meeting. Thank you for all your help.

However, the Commissioners ignored all evidence and approved the draft rule, because as they said “this fish has been protected since 1990, and it’s time to re-open the fishery”

The draft rule presented today at the FWC public meeting included:
x Allow recreational harvest of 200 fish per year
x Open season: March 1 through May 31
x Size Slot: 20 to 36 inches by hook-and-line only
x Tag price: $500 per fish
x Target area: Harvest permitted in all Florida state waters (including Everglades National Park)
except for Palm Beach County -Atlantic coast of the Keys and Dry Tortugas National Park

What this means: Juveniles will be targeted in their mangrove nurseries. The juvenile habitat has been declining over the years, and the only functional habitat now will be targeted. This habitat is also remote and difficult to target for enforcement purposes. Remember, juveniles migrate from mangrove nursery to reef at size 120 cm (= 47 inches).

Important: reporting of catches by recreational fishermen is voluntary. We all know how well that works

The requests to modify the draft rule include:
x Increase the size of fish targeted because it was considered “too small” and “not enough for a trophy” (this affects survival to the adult phase, also, increases exposure to methyl mercury when people eat the fish)
x Increase total harvest, as 200 fish killed per year was considered “too low a catch”
x Expand targeted area because the area targeted was considered” too small”
x Reduce the cost of the tag, now at $500 per fish, to “democratize access to fishery”

Important: Commissioners are convinced that FWC enforcement will be everywhere at all times, enforcing the regulations. I wonder if they have the power to teleport themselves, because in all the years spent in the mangroves and reefs of Florida, not once I’ve seen an FWC enforcement boat patrolling the waters.

 

[Pipehorse]

In this article: The proposal remains tentative until a second vote in March 2022, and probably would not effect until 2023, according to agency spokesperson Amanda Nalley. Meanwhile, the agency continues to gather public comment, which people can submit at myfwc.com/saltwatercomments

Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/article254809057.html#.storylink=cpy

I know we can't have them grow out of control but I just can't see how someone could see any sport in killing these big slow moving fellows. I also don't see that many around to suggests that they are out of control or anything. Wonder how they know the numbers have rebounded. Did a group from here go to see the spawning this year? Are there really growing numbers?

Jaan,

I understand your thoughts on this, the reality is (unfortunately), all apex predators on the face of the earth are doomed as long Homo sapiens as a species doubles every fifty years. Need proof, how have sharks faired, how have polar bears faired, how have tigers faired, we (human beings) almost managed to annihilate ospreys, eagles, and peregrine falcons with DDT. Competition and thus the need to wipe out other apex predators is deeply rooted in the psyche of modern man from the early days of species origin in Africa, regardless and in spite of the fact that evolution of our large brains have developed technology to allow man to walk on the moon, the same advanced technology has at least half the planet addicted to Facebook (pathetic). You would think we (human beings) would be able to think or way through this kind of issue, but it is just not the case. We might be sentient beings that believe in afterlife, but we are still animals nevertheless.
As a practical matter, the issue with Goliath Groupers is a Catch-22. Fishery management practice relies on data largely obtained mostly from commercial fishing. It relies on data from recreational fishing as well, but the goliath share (pun intended) comes from commercial fishing. Since the Goliath fishery has been shut down for thirty years (commercial and recreational), there is not enough data to arrive at good conclusions. This has worked in favor of keeping the fishery closed. The data that is available is largely from scuba divers making observations. A lot of it is anecdotal, but some of it has been documented in a matter to allow some small amount of statistical analysis. Naturally the fisherman, and head boat captains all want to scream that they can't catch fish because goliaths are eating everything, all without providing evidence of their claims. Nevertheless, their argument does not fall on deaf ears because as I already stated, competition and the need to control apex predators is deeply embedded in the psyche of modern man. With that pressure, eventually some kind of fishing season has to be opened to allow for data collection and better management practices. So really the thought that somehow Goliath Grouper population might get out of control is a sad pathetic joke.

 

[greeniguana]

This appeared today on a professional scientific forum:
----------------------------------------
Today, in denial of all scientific evidence that shows the species is still endangered, with adult populations declining, the FWC Commissioners approved the draft rule to kill Goliath Grouper.

This is in violation of the 1990 federal and state moratorium on harvest.

The Commissioners requested some changes, so FWC staff will gather them and return with the final rule for the public hearing in March 2022.

The goal is to start killing in 2023.

If any of our NOAA friends are reading this message…. This is your time to take action.

During the meeting, the scientific evidence presented against the draft take rule was very solid. Also, the majority of public comment, from scientists, SCUBA diving organizations, even recreational fishing organizations, was against the take. I also know that several of the people on this list submitted public comments prior to the meeting. Thank you for all your help.

However, the Commissioners ignored all evidence and approved the draft rule, because as they said “this fish has been protected since 1990, and it’s time to re-open the fishery”

The draft rule presented today at the FWC public meeting included:
x Allow recreational harvest of 200 fish per year
x Open season: March 1 through May 31
x Size Slot: 20 to 36 inches by hook-and-line only
x Tag price: $500 per fish
x Target area: Harvest permitted in all Florida state waters (including Everglades National Park)
except for Palm Beach County -Atlantic coast of the Keys and Dry Tortugas National Park

What this means: Juveniles will be targeted in their mangrove nurseries. The juvenile habitat has been declining over the years, and the only functional habitat now will be targeted. This habitat is also remote and difficult to target for enforcement purposes. Remember, juveniles migrate from mangrove nursery to reef at size 120 cm (= 47 inches).

Important: reporting of catches by recreational fishermen is voluntary. We all know how well that works

The requests to modify the draft rule include:
x Increase the size of fish targeted because it was considered “too small” and “not enough for a trophy” (this affects survival to the adult phase, also, increases exposure to methyl mercury when people eat the fish)
x Increase total harvest, as 200 fish killed per year was considered “too low a catch”
x Expand targeted area because the area targeted was considered” too small”
x Reduce the cost of the tag, now at $500 per fish, to “democratize access to fishery”

Important: Commissioners are convinced that FWC enforcement will be everywhere at all times, enforcing the regulations. I wonder if they have the power to teleport themselves, because in all the years spent in the mangroves and reefs of Florida, not once I’ve seen an FWC enforcement boat patrolling the waters.

Which Profesional scientific forum?