San Diego Dive Fatality 9-29-09

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I think it is interesting to note that there is q difference between
divers who are certified in cold water with an instructor present
vs a vacationing diver who was certified in warn water. We don't
have "orientation dives" or even a dive master who dives with you in Calif. but I think it would be a good
idea if more operators offered that for warm water divers.
Yeah, it would be a good idea for divers to take personal responsibilities and request that service at a fair price. California diving is certainly different than the Caribbean. ScubaLuv on Catalina did give excellent briefings with tourists in mind tho; it's not impossible for a warm water diver to learn without a personal DM.

For Pugent Sound diving tho, I did look for an find a local DM and it did help a lot. It was a nice couple here on SB actually, who would not accept payment, but I managed to force some benefits on them.
I know for a fact that at least the Marissa offers an option to pay for a divemaster to take you on a guided dive for $25/dive I used this the first couple of dives with them to get back into the cold water game, cheap insurance in my book.
I bet almost any Op would.
I am curious if there is any general sense that this operation is actually unsafe or is this merely typical hype. I am scheduled to be on a dive with them in a couple of weeks. I am concerned.
Why don't you ask on the local forum.
If you are a competent and skilled diver there is really no need to be concerned. The way the op runs is of little concern unless you expect them to keep safe on your dive. I look at every op as a taxi service. Get me to the site and back safely. Other than that it's my responsibility to plan, execute, and return safely to the boat. If that is beyond anyone's ability they should stay on shore. He was overweighted and ran out of air according to the report. That is no one's fault but his own and perhaps that of his training if he was not taught proper weighting and gas management. Unless the operator was also falsely claiming as the seemingly increasing number of Caribbean ops do that all the dives they do are safe because a DM or "Guide" is in the water and he fell for that line of BS. And the report about the op's problems is horsecrap anyway. They cite a fatality 4 YEARS AGO UNDER DIFFERENT MANAGEMENT! ***! Typical media sensationalism.
Yeah, the Calf Ops are like many: transportation & support, but not instructing - not their job. Some Ops around Floriday and the Caribbean do put DM leaders in the water with the divers, but they're still not there to babysit or instruct.

Diver responsibility...!
This is not a result of diver error
Damn sure was. Whether he was mislead or not I'm not sure, but removing your BC in the water with a weight belt on is a diver error, and failing to release the belt when sinking is another.
Even if Pro Diver's account turns out to be true, most of what went wrong STILL is the diver's responsibility. But if it's all true, then the dive op most certainly was negligent in some ways, and should be held accountable.
Yes, but beyond the scope of this forum. We're here to discuss and learn - not convict.
 
In my mind, you shouldn't be wearing more weight on you than you and your exposure suit can float at the surface. If you need more ballast, that should go on the BC (either weight integrated, backplate &/or cam bands).

That way, if you remove your BC unit, you'll still float at the surface.

It works well for me in NorCal waters with my 7 mm FJ and I need a lot of ballast. Are there any situations were you'd want to or have to have so much weight on your belt that you'd be negative at the surface?
 
Originally Posted by Leejnd
Even if Pro Diver's account turns out to be true, most of what went wrong STILL is the diver's responsibility. But if it's all true, then the dive op most certainly was negligent in some ways, and should be held accountable.​
Yes, but beyond the scope of this forum. We're here to discuss and learn - not convict.

Don, please know that I am 100% in agreement with you that this was, almost to a certaintly, primarily diver error. Even if the DM asked for the diver's BC and didn't tell him to take off his weights first, it is indisputably the diver's responsibility to know better.

Just for the record, here is what I posted on that article website:

Based on the earlier reports, we'd been told the following:

1. The diver ran out of air and surfaced too fast (which, by the way could have caused an emolism or DCS, which could have contributed to his sinking after surfacing) - solely diver responsibility, nothing to do with the dive op.

2. The diver removed his BC but not his weight belt while still in the water - solely diver responsibility.

3. The diver became entangled in kelp - solely diver responsibility.

4. The diver was overweighted - solely diver responsibility.

Based on JUST THAT INFORMATION, there was no reason whatsoever to blame the dive op...and any earlier incidents and/or violations were completely irrelevant, since the diver was solely responsible for what happened. That's what troubled me - people with no knowledge other than what had been reported, jumping to unfounded, unwarranted conclusions and publicly spouting off about it, which could result in the destruction of someone's business for no good reason.

Now, you [Pro Diver] have provided further details (albeit uncomfirmed - right now you are nothing but an anonymous commenter on a website). IF your details about the way this incident unfolded are in fact true, then that puts a different spin on things...but only to a point.

If the diver was wearing improper gear (3-mil wetsuit) and was overweighted, I'm sorry but that was NOT the op's fault. Every diver, when diving in new conditions with different gear, should do a bouyancy check at the surface. This is the diver's responsibility, not the dive op's. The diver should have realized immediately that he was overweighted, and shed weight before he dropped.

If the diver came to the boat to get assistance boarding, I'm sorry but it is the diver's responsibility to know that you don't shed your BOUYANCY device before your weights! If a diver has never done that type of boat entry before, then he should have done some research about how to do it first, and not expected the dive operator to tell him what to do. He should have known. And besides, it's kinda just common sense that you don't take off the thing that's keeping you afloat, before you take off the thing that's going to make you sink.

Please understand that I am not saying the dive op has no responsibility here. If what you are saying is true, then he was breaking all kinds of rules just by not having a DM onboard. That's negligent - and if true, he'll go down just for that (as well he should). Also, while divers are expected to know basic safety practices (e.g. removing weights before BC), the op should be providing appropriate guidance to divers in the water - and that should include instructing them to remove their weights first. I've done many of these kinds of small-boat entries (pangas in Mexico, zodiacs in Tahiti, etc.) and the DM ALWAYS told us forcefully to remove our weights first - not that we needed to be told, but people can do boneheaded things, so it was a precaution. If the dive op actually took his BC from him without telling him to shed his weights first, that was negligent.

But this is all assuming all that you have said is true...which at this point is pure speculation, since there's no official report that matches your description. For now, all we have are the official reports, which still point to solely the diver's responsibility.

If this dive op acted negligently, I hope they are investigated and prosecuted. But I'd just like to see justice unfold properly, and not see a business get destroyed through speculation, rumor, anonymous internet postings, and unfounded innuendo.

If anything good can come out of this, it's a reminder to ALL divers to KNOW YOUR SKILL, and dive within it...and to follow all proper safety practices, because a single boneheaded move can quickly prove fatal.

My only point was that if this dive boat is operating negligently, then both this incident, and the boat's operation, should be investigated and held accountable for whatever negligence they committed. And with other divers in here asking questions about whether or not they should dive with this op, I think that's good enough reason to discuss this in this thread!
 
Thanks... sounds like that guy has an ax to grind with the operator...

Yeah...that's pretty obvious. He seems to know an awful lot about that dive op. My bet is on a competitor who's pissed off that his competition isn't playing by the rules.

The sad reality is that, even if everything that Pro Diver said is true, there still is nothing that the dive op did (other than not having a certified DM on that boat) that makes this sad tragedy the dive op's fault. I still stand by my opinion, based on the information out there so far, that this fatality was due to diver error.

But, if what Pro Diver said is true, there are a lot of reasons for someone NOT to want to dive with that operator.

It'll be interesting to see where the investigation goes.
 
I hate reading about these tragedies, especially in my hometown of San Diego. A place that I love to dive when I'm there (if I thought it would work, we'd have our meetings underwater with slates).

But, what scares the hell out of me is when I read posts that state, either implicitly or explicitly, that warm water, tropical diving is much easier than diving colder (50F and below is what I consider "cold water diving", and I don't dive in those places) water. It shows a certain lack of respect that may end tragically. Every environment and location has it's own set of dangers and challenges. Whether it's extra gear, dealing with kelp, handling a current that can drag you down 30ft in the blink of an eye, or water so clear you could hit 200ft before you realize it. ALL diving, no matter where it's at should be treated with an equal amount of respect. Unless you're a well trained exploration diver doing your thing in an uncharted location, there's always going to be ways to learn from the locals. More than a few times cold water divers have come down to Cozumel thinking that the diving will be cake compared to what they're used to and let down their guard because of that belief. And it was only by the grace of God, a lot of luck, and help from some attentive fellow divers (not necessarily a DM) that they didn't end-up a corpse on the reef and a thread in the A&I forum. My point. . . No matter where you go, if you aren't familiar with the local, dive with someone who is. If you aren't familiar with the equipment, train with it first. If you don't feel comfortable, save the dive for a day that you are. None of this is news, but it bears repeating.
 
Guys, everyone who has had good training or read a few posts on this board gets it. The diver, and solely the diver, is responsible for his/her safety. There should be a capable buddy there to assist and be assisted should any need arise. The dive op should be nothing more than a water taxi that has and shares local knowledge.

The problem is that there are a large quantity of divers who haven't had good training, or at least didn't absorb the lessons. There are quite a few divers who expect that the dive op will also be responsible at some level for planning the dive, leading/controlling the dive, and for their safety in the water.

I can't believe there is a dive op on the planet that doesn't realize this to be true. A dive op that doesn't address this issue is making a big mistake, and probably worthy of being called "unsafe." They could put it in their sales information, discuss it with potential clients directly or anything else. It should be clear before anyone boards a boat, and it has to be clear before anyone ddrops into the water. Whether it is one client in ten or one in a hundred, if there's a diver on the boat with the misconception that the DM is there to watch and protect them in the water, then that diver is going to be a higher risk of accident than those who expect to be self-sufficient.

This sounds like another opportunity for Jim to write a paper that people can use.

This is such a worthwhile thought that I've copied this to my own computer to ensure I have it always handy. If any of the operators / instructors want me to, I'll take a crack at writing a formal position paper. Alternatively, if anyone wants to do it themself, I'm willing to edit it for them.
 

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