San Diego Dive Fatality 9-29-09

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After reading through (almost) all of the posts in this thread, there's one question that is foremost in my mind. Once the diver handed off his BC w/air supply and was still wearing his weights, when he slipped back below the surface, was there any sense of urgency among the crew/fellow divers? I'm not getting a feel for that from what's been posted here.
 
Like Teamcasa said, handing off the weight belt first is usually only done when the BC is going to be taken off and handed-up as well. I haven't encountered a situation, CA, or any other place that requires, or asks a person to hand-up their weight belt when they're going to re-board wearing their BC. Anyone encounter this?

I've been diving off many different types of boats, in various places around the world. I have only ever removed my weights in the water (mine are integrated pouches that are easy to remove) when I am also removing my BC in the water. And this only happens when boarding a small boat - e.g. a zodiak or panga. But definitely, when boarding a small boat like that, I have always removed my gear in the water. And the weights come off first.

I have never removed my weights when I was re-boarding the boat with my gear on. But nor have I ever removed my BC in the water without removing my weights first.

The whole point of removing your weights in the water is so that you wont end up with your weights on...but not you BCD. Not even a 7-mil wetsuit will keep you afloat then without a lot of work...and this diver was only wearing a 3-mil, and was weighted for a 7-mil.
 
I have a d-ring on my weightbelt. I clip a line from the boat to it and take it off. I clip a line from the boat to a d-ring on my rig and take it off. I exit the water and then haul both up into the boat. I have two lines with clips that I carry in my gear bag, I use them on the rare occasion that a boat doesn't have any gear lines ready.
 
I've been diving off many different types of boats, in various places around the world. I have only ever removed my weights in the water (mine are integrated pouches that are easy to remove) when I am also removing my BC in the water. And this only happens when boarding a small boat - e.g. a zodiak or panga. But definitely, when boarding a small boat like that, I have always removed my gear in the water. And the weights come off first.

I have never removed my weights when I was re-boarding the boat with my gear on. But nor have I ever removed my BC in the water without removing my weights first.

The whole point of removing your weights in the water is so that you wont end up with your weights on...but not you BCD. Not even a 7-mil wetsuit will keep you afloat then without a lot of work...and this diver was only wearing a 3-mil, and was weighted for a 7-mil.
That's what I thought. I can understand a cold water diver who might want to hand their weight belt up (even if the crew is weary of it, because of the threat of a lost belt), because, let's face it, they can have some serious weight on them and it would be less dangerous and more stable for them to re-board without it. I was just wondering if this was a crew requirement or "request" in some places.

I'm following this particular thread closely because it hit home. As my profile indicates, I spend a good portion of my year living and diving in Cozumel, MX (I know, I hate me too) off of six-pack boats where handing a BC up is the norm. And the possibility of loosing a fellow diver because they were sunk by their weight belt has come close to happening on more than a few occasions. Surprisingly, they weren't all novice divers. Thanks to increasing airline weight restrictions, some people have chosen to bring only some of their equipment and rent the rest. One of the most frequently rented pieces of equipment is a BC. And since most shops rent non-weight integrated BCs a weight belt comes with it. Some of these people have never used a weight belt, their primary BC is integrated. So, when they go to take off their BC to hand it up, they forget about the weight belt. Luckily, this has always been caught by the diver, boat captain, or a fellow diver before anything serious happened and the situation wasn't seen for how serious it really was and quickly forgotten. It was this thread that really illustrated (whether this was the cause of the tragedy or not) how dangerous this can be.
 
Maybe that's because it's not really a sport.

When little Johnny crashes his bicycle flying down Kansas Ave (Potrero Hill, S.F.) and ends up partially paralized even though he was wearing his helmet, are there internet forums dwelling on the fact that we can't learn anything from it a week after that recreational accident?

SCUBA is just a recreation that if you screw up badly enough doing it you can die. It's even more dangerous if you are not in the best health and fitness. Then add in questionable decisions with regards to experience, ability and equipment; hell I think there is plenty to learn here even though SCUBA is not a sport.

OK, Scuba diving is the only recreation that I've been involved in where there is rarely anything to learn from the accidents (and that's not a good thing).

It's true that if you look hard enough you can find something to comment on but the cause in scuba is usually so basic that there is nothing to learn...in this case don't run out of air...is there anyone who will now learn not to run out of air as a result of reading of this accident?

Maybe, someone will learn that they should take off their weight belt if they are falling to the bottom of the ocean...but I think people knew this as well before reading of this accident.

Unlike other recreational pursuits (hows that) where people make mistakes and the reader can see how they could have made that same mistake too...in scuba this is usually not the case.

Pick a few diver deaths in your local area. Other than health did they occur from some small error of judgment that you could just as easily have made on a bad day or was it something so basic that there is really nothing to learn from it?
 
Gcbryan, I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

There have been more threads about accidents & incidents than I can count, in which valuable information was provided that taught lessons, increased awareness and understanding, and may very well have saved divers' lives.

Just from this thread alone, divers may have learned that SoCal diving is very different from tropical or warm-water diving...and that diving in kelp requires knowledge of the unique qualities of kelp, and specific methods for getting out of it.

For all we know, some diver from Florida, who was planning a trip to CA and intending to do some diving while here, may have decided to do a little more research into SoCal diving before booking that boat. They might have clicked the links I provided earlier in this thread about kelp. They might have decided to book a private DM to go with them, rather than going off on their own with a buddy who also doesn't know SoCal diving. And that diver might be able to continue to go home to his OWN family, because he ended with enough knowledge to safely dive this unfamiliar region.

There have been numerous lessons I myself have gained from these threads. I have changed the way I do some things because of these lessons I've learned. But even MORE important: I've reinforced things that I should have already known. I've committed to memory certain details that might not have seemed important to me when I learned them - but when I read how another diver made what seemed like a trivial error, and ended up dead, I've made a point to not make that mistake myself.

I know for a fact that I am a safer diver due to reading this forum, and participating in accident analyses.

If you find no value in it, however, I suppose there's not much point in you reading or posting in here, is there?
 
I'm going to have to see if my weight belt shifts next time I'm diving. And, yes, I'm going to practice ditching it.

Bruce, you are an experienced and highly skilled diver. Consequently, you will have no trouble ditching your belt, even if it shifts. You'll have the mental wherewithal to find the buckle.
 
Gcbryan, I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

There have been more threads about accidents & incidents than I can count, in which valuable information was provided that taught lessons, increased awareness and understanding, and may very well have saved divers' lives.

Just from this thread alone, divers may have learned that SoCal diving is very different from tropical or warm-water diving...and that diving in kelp requires knowledge of the unique qualities of kelp, and specific methods for getting out of it.

For all we know, some diver from Florida, who was planning a trip to CA and intending to do some diving while here, may have decided to do a little more research into SoCal diving before booking that boat. They might have clicked the links I provided earlier in this thread about kelp. They might have decided to book a private DM to go with them, rather than going off on their own with a buddy who also doesn't know SoCal diving. And that diver might be able to continue to go home to his OWN family, because he ended with enough knowledge to safely dive this unfamiliar region.

There have been numerous lessons I myself have gained from these threads. I have changed the way I do some things because of these lessons I've learned. But even MORE important: I've reinforced things that I should have already known. I've committed to memory certain details that might not have seemed important to me when I learned them - but when I read how another diver made what seemed like a trivial error, and ended up dead, I've made a point to not make that mistake myself.

I know for a fact that I am a safer diver due to reading this forum, and participating in accident analyses.

If you find no value in it, however, I suppose there's not much point in you reading or posting in here, is there?

I continue to keep up with deaths in the diving community so if you don't mind I might just stick around and even express my opinion from time to time.

However, the main point as far as I can tell is that the diver ran out of air and didn't know how to take his weight belt off. I'm sure most experienced divers in Florida can do that.

Most people, without reading a diver death report know that diving is different in any area other than in their local area.

I'm not saying these threads are not worthwhile. I like to know what happened just like the next person.

It's overstating the case to say that nothing can be learned in any thread but when you look at the actual cause of most recreational diving deaths there is little to be learned in most cases from the actual cause.

Don't get in the water with cement shoes is something that most people know intuitively. Don't wear weights around your waist in excess of your buoyancy requirements is the same thing.

Running out of air...there is no reason for that unless it is a mechanical issue or to be realistic perhaps if it's your first or second dive (just being lenient here).

Are you saying that some people wouldn't know to not run out of air without reading of this incident?
 
I continue to keep up with deaths in the diving community so if you don't mind I might just stick around and even express my opinion from time to time.

Good...I hope you do. The more divers who read this forum, the fewer dive fatalities we will have. But I'm just curious: if you truly feel there is nothing to learn here, why read in here at all? Is it just morbid curiosity?

However, the main point as far as I can tell is that the diver ran out of air and didn't know how to take his weight belt off. I'm sure most experienced divers in Florida can do that.

One would think. But HE was an experienced diver too. Apparently he messed up. Are you going to tell me that you don't think there's a single diver who might read this thread and gain a useful REMINDER? Divers who are years out of their cert classes can forget the basics. Reminders like this make the difference.

Most people, without reading a diver death report know that diving is different in any area other than in their local area.

Sure, most divers SHOULD know this. But I can't tell you how many times I've heard of divers coming to SoCal and heading right out to dive, without having done any research. I've seen them on the local dive boats. I've HELPED non-local divers, by giving them just some basic info about kelp - because we were about to dive in it, which they thought was very cool, but gosh they'd never actually SEEN it before. Yes, that happens.

I'm not saying these threads are not worthwhile. I like to know what happened just like the next person.

But why? Just curious. I'm here to learn, improve my awareness, and gain useful reminders.

It's overstating the case to say that nothing can be learned in any thread but when you look at the actual cause of most recreational diving deaths there is little to be learned in most cases from the actual cause.

Once again, I disagree. In another thread in this forum, we're discussing a death on lobster season opening night. Some first-hand information just came to light that the problem may have been lack of understanding of hand-signals - that the diver may have been trying to signal to his buddy that he was low on air, and the buddy misinterpreted the signal to mean that he wanted her to check HER air. She did, then went on with the dive, and lost him in the dark. He ultimately ran out of air. And died.

I know for a FACT that there are lots of divers who do not discuss hand signals in advance. I've had divers watch my husband and me go through our hand-signal routine during our buddy check, and heard them say, "Oh, yeah, we should do that too." So, maybe some diver will read that thread, and the next time they are diving with an instabuddy, will remember to do the hand-signal run-through before they jump in.

See how this works?

Are you saying that some people wouldn't know to not run out of air without reading of this incident?

No. In this thread, I've been saying that people might not realize how to avoid getting tangled in kelp (which sounds like it was the initiation of the incident), or how to get out of it, if they didn't read about this incident. And now that they have, they might just LEARN about kelp before they go and dive in it.

My point is that it's useful to read about the mistakes that divers make, especially the ones that cost them their lives. It reinforces the behaviors and practices that we learned in training, and SHOULD know instinctively - but don't always.

But this has been said over and over...and I'm pretty much done saying it. I've got a trip to the Galapagos to plan for. Where I will know what to expect, because I did the research in advance.
 
Bruce, you are an experienced and highly skilled diver. Consequently, you will have no trouble ditching your belt, even if it shifts. You'll have the mental wherewithal to find the buckle.

This whole thing has given me pause to consider my diving style. I use a BP/W setup and wear my weight belt inside the crotch strap. I started doing that out of concern about losing my weight belt at depth.

I decided to call Tobin at DSS to solicit his thoughts. He makes no recommendations, but provided me with a lot of information. It comes down to this:

1. I should move weight to my BP/W so that even without it, I am positively buoyant. (Thus, I don't need to worry about sinking if I take off my BP/W. I do need to worry about floating if I do that at depth and fail to hold on to it or a big rock.)

2. My total weight should be such that with a full tank and empty wing or BCD, I float at eye level. He points out that because I'm using a full tank, I can fine tune my weight at the beginning of the dive when it is easy to do. This may require that I swim down the first few feet until my wetsuit compresses and loses some buoyancy. And, it may require my safety stop to be at 20 feet rather than 15. However, less weight has lots of benefits.

3. If I wear my weight belt inside my crotch strap, I am somewhat protected against losing my weight belt under water. As far as ditching it in an emergency, I can consider one of two things:

a. I use weight pouches and as a result, I can drop 1 or 2 three pound weights quickly and easily. (Since my weighting is minimal, this may be more than enough to make me positively buoyant. And it will surely be enough if I'm at the surface because I'm weighted to be positive at the surface even with an empty wing.)

b. According to Tobin, if I just release the belly strap on the BP/W along with the weight belt, the crotch strap will slide off the belly strap and the weight belt will drop. (I'll have to test this to see if it actually happens.)

4. If I am more concerned with dumping my weight belt than with losing it, I can wear it outside the crotch strap.

Unless I hear any real good arguments to the contrary or I find that I can't make myself positively buoyant as described above, I think I'm going to continue to wear my weights inside my crotch strap -- and make sure my buddy is aware of it.
 

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