Safety Question

[DandyDon]

When you rent life support equipment, you need to know even more about it - not less.

I'm curious about which level of DAN dive insurance you two have? I have a hunch but tell, please...

A sign that they may not have been doing proper maintenance is the regulators were leaking, we were regularly sucking in water.

Uh, that can be dangerous in its own. :shocked2: I'd dive that reg once, briefly as I called the dive.

This dive shop was in San Pedro Belize. I was not impressed with them. During a week of diving the dive master never asked anyone how much air they had.

That's beside the point. You are certified. Not his job to babysit you.

I have another stupid question. When renting equipment the psi of a new tank has alway been from 2800 to 3300 tops but in Belize it was consistently 3600 to 3900. Were they over pressurizing the tanks? Is that why the hose blew?

Wow! Did you check that spg on a close valve to be zero psi?

 

[herman]

There is a threaded metal piece that screws into the larger metal piece that attaches to the tank (sorry I rent equipment so I don't know the terminology). The hose broke where the rubber hose is attached to the threaded metal piece. Since we always rent BCs and regs we rely on the dive shop to maintain the equipment. A sign that they may not have been doing proper maintenance is the regulators were leaking, we were regularly sucking in water.

This dive shop was in San Pedro Belize. I was not impressed with them. During a week of diving the dive master never asked anyone how much air they had.

I have another stupid question. When renting equipment the psi of a new tank has alway been from 2800 to 3300 tops but in Belize it was consistently 3600 to 3900. Were they over pressurizing the tanks? Is that why the hose blew?

While it is possible the hose just picked that time to fail, my guess this was not an equipment failure but rather an diver/DM failure. The most likely reason for a hose to fail at that location and time is it was struck by something. My guess is it was not secured, was rocking back and forth on the boat and was knocked off or the diver next to you slamed into it as they sat down. I have also seen divers lift their gear by the hoses which is a great way to cause this type of failure. In any case, my bet is it was a human error, not (unassisted) equipment failure that caused the hose to break.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I am currently in the process of developing a new presentation for an upcoming show. Granted it is still months away but this topic is going to require some research. Thanks for giving me some new material. The topic is "Responsibilities of the Certified Diver to Themself and Others." After reading the last 4 pages I see so many things that hit me as either wrong or just plain scary. I could go and blame some of what happened on your training to begin with. But everyone who regularly reads this board knows my feelings on that. So I'll not go there and give the instructors and shops that screw people over a break.

As to your (the certified diver) role. First of all I have to ask how seriously you take this sport? There really is little excuse for a diver to not know some of the basic terminology such as what gear is what. That can be found out by simply going over your OW manual or 10 minutes on line. Next why would you even contemplate continuing to dive with "leaky" regs given the seeming lack of knowledge of them and how they work? Many including myself get tired of the "it's life support" line given to damn near every piece of gear but a reg truly is. As a certified diver you have an obligation to yourself and the people you dive with to educate yourself on as many aspects of the sport if your initial instruction fell short in certain areas.

As to the DM. He/she is not your mommy or daddy. Unless hired by you solely for that purpose you have no right to expect them to make certain you are safe beyond assisting in an extreme emergency when your buddy is unable to help and self rescue is not an option. And the fact is that for the competent diver it (self rescue) often is the best option. Why would you expect him/her to keep track of your air? It is YOUR air. Your responsibility and yours alone. Communicating it to anyone is a courtesy and a convenience.

As to the air pressure in the tanks were they al or steel? HP or LP? What was the air temp? Could they have been showing the effects of Charles Law given the conditions? If it was an LP hose that blew the presuure in the tank would have little effect on that as the pressure to the hose would be the intermediate pressure. Again covered in your OW class or should have been. As herman said it is more likely that pure carelessness is what caused the hose to fail. And many times a simple visual inspection of the gear, which every diver should know how to do, is sufficient to catch this. Cracks, leaky regs, corrosion, etc., all would be an indication of a potential problem. And again it is your responsibility as a certified diver to do this inspection and to at least learn what to look for. I never trust rental gear and even with my own a visual inspection is done before every dive outing to pick up potential problems.

The final issue I'll address is the buddy skills or lack thereof. The buddy system is talked about by every agency and hopefully every instructor. Yet too often talk is as far as it really goes. It is loosely used in training dives and even more so to not at all in pool training. This has resulted in the deaths of a number of divers. And I have the reports (including autopsy) and statements to back up this assertion. If diving in current is causing you to become separated then you have two options. Improve your buddy skills (which you should strive to do on EVERY dive that you do with a buddy) or stay out of dives where current is involved. For divers skilled in the buddy system and competent in the water there are few reasons for real separations that present a danger to either person should an emergency arise. High current, downwellings, upwellings, sudden siltouts, etc. But even these can be less of a risk if you use good skills to begin with.

New divers IMO should never be more than a body length from their buddy regardless of how good the vis is. Experienced divers can increase this distance with the understanding of the risks and of their own abilities. Many times what sets up a problem is the lack of understanding of pace. Pace or speed of the dive is set by the slowest diver on every aspect of the dive if you are actually diving as buddies. Descent, swim, and ascent are controlled by the slowest diver. If this is a problem then it's time to find a new buddy or just assume that the one you have may be useless and plan accordingly.

It would appear that from your posts, that before you go into the water again you get with a good instructor and do a thorough review of all aspects of the sport- gear, choosing a dive site or location, and buddy skills. There are too many issues here, any one of which could have tragic results, to ignore.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

There is a threaded metal piece that screws into the larger metal piece that attaches to the tank (sorry I rent equipment so I don't know the terminology). The hose broke where the rubber hose is attached to the threaded metal piece. Since we always rent BCs and regs we rely on the dive shop to maintain the equipment. A sign that they may not have been doing proper maintenance is the regulators were leaking, we were regularly sucking in water.

This dive shop was in San Pedro Belize. I was not impressed with them. During a week of diving the dive master never asked anyone how much air they had.

I have another stupid question. When renting equipment the psi of a new tank has alway been from 2800 to 3300 tops but in Belize it was consistently 3600 to 3900. Were they over pressurizing the tanks? Is that why the hose blew?

It sounds like it was an old hose. Rental gear in a busy place like Belize gets massive amounts of use. That wear and tear, and tons of divers who don't care much about how they treat equipment not their own, can contribute to worn materials.
And I would much rather lose my high pressure hose than a low. It oushes through a much smaller opening. A low pressure hose just pours out.

As to your question, stay close enough to your buddy to use their air after you used your octopus and have run out of air. Be near enough to them with your octo to communicate as you ascend and they will have theirs ready. Do Not inflate your bc. That means you are quickly doing an uncontrolled ascent, thus endangering you even more. So, octo, then buddy. Stay calm and you will make it.

 

[Airleron]

No matter how inconvenient, PITA, costly, etc. lugging my gear all over the globe becomes, I will always do this just because of the OP experience. My gear allows me to see a world I would not see otherwise, so I treat it as the Life Saving equipment it is. You must also think of your buddy that same way, Life Saving equipment. Be more vigilant about gear you do rent, question the dive op if something doesn't look right beforehand, and stay close to your buddy.

 

[penguinpete]

It is not his job to baby sit people and I can monitor my own air but this is the only dive master that I have dove with that has never checked anyone's air. They usually check once per dive.

 

[goonsquad]

If this had become a CESA where the op couldn't get to his buddy and was all alone on his ascent, why not shallow breathe off of the air in his BC?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

It is not his job to baby sit people and I can monitor my own air but this is the only dive master that I have dove with that has never checked anyone's air. They usually check once per dive.

Again my question is why? It is the divers responsibility to notify the DM when they are at the turn pressure, low, etc. I never expect the DM (outside of training anyway) to ask what everyone's pressure is. Of course I try to dive with ops that do not put a DM in the water anyway and those that do are told that I plan my own dives and if that's a problem I'll find another op.

At any time if the DM or Guide does something that makes me uncomfortable, exceeds my training or comfort level (pretty tough to do now though in recreational setting), or does something I do not agree with I am under no obligation to follow them. I am also free at any time to call the dive and end it on my own. I will notify them I'm going back but that is as far as it goes. My dive, my plan.

 

[Nemrod]

We were just diving in Belize over the 4th of July. On the boat ride back in my regulator line broke at the tank end (I may not have the correct jargon). The dive that we just completed had an enclosed swimthrough about ten yards long at 85 feet deep. It occurred to me that I may have been in trouble if the line would have broken in the swimthrough.

I am assuming that I would not get air to my regulator if the line broke at the tank end. I also assumed that my octopus should still work, so the safest thing for me to do would be to grab my octopus and start breathing through it. If that did not work then I would have to catch my wife (dive buddy) and use her octopus. I would appreciate any comments on this scenario as to what would be the safest thing to do.

The regulator hose blowing out brought another situation to mind. We doing a drift dive in about 40 feet of water with strong current. The dive site was Mini Reef out of Puerto Morelos MX. When we surfaced I was joking with my wife that everytime I looked for her she was twenty yards away and going the other direction.

We got in a discussion about what would be the safest thing to do if the regulator hose blew on that drift dive and I could not use my octopus. I say that I should inflate my BC and head for the surface. She thinks that maybe I should try to swim to her and use her octopus, and she would be twentty yards away and going the other direction.

Any comments about the safest way to handle either situation?

Sorry to the OP, but this post has so many things wrong with it that it is the perfect example of why training needs to be increased to a more stringent level for basic scuba certifications.

1. Maintain and inspet your equipment, do not pull or carry by the hoses, hoses do not just fail, there is a reason, usually a visual inspection would have revealed the defect.

2. The octopus would have worked

3. A LP failure will bleed air at a very fast rate.

4. No, do not "inflate your BC" and head to the surface from a drift dive at 85 plus feet--My GOD!!!!!!!

Here is what you would do, assuming your wife is nearby like she should be if your primary regulator hose "broke" at the fist stage:

1. Switch to your octopus second.
2. Swim to your wife while giving her the OOA signal or other pre-arranged/practiced signal.
3. Calmly take her octo and after reassuring each other that all is well, begin a controlled ascent to the surface.

Note: There will be a HUGE amount of bubbles and noise from the broken LP hose, ignore it.

4. Once back safely on the boat, hug each other that God has seen fit to spare you your life and that you still have each other and resolve next time to have well maintained scuba equipment to dive with.

LP/HP hoses break/leak/fail because people carry their equipment by the hoses, because they pull and tug and pull and tug and YANK!!on the hoses and fail to retract the hoses covers etc to inspect the hoses.

If you don't know what to look for in a damaged hoses--have an experienced diver show you--now!

N

 

[penguinpete]

Sorry you misunderstood my post. The original post talks about two different scenarios.

Scenario 1- The hose blows in a swim through at 85 feet. My reaction is to use my octopus but since this has never happened I wasn't sure if that would be possible. Thanks to the replies that I have received here, yup, I should be able to use my octopus for at least a short period of time, then use my buddies octopus.

Scenario 2- A 40 foot drift dive. I probably should have explained it this way: My hose blows. I am forty feet from the surface and forty feet from my dive partner and my octopus is not working. Surfacing or trying to get to my dive buddy?

AT NO TIME DID I SAY THAT I WOULD INFLATE MY BC AND DO AN ASCENT FROM 85 FEET.

See my post to herman above. I think I know why the hose broke.