Rigid Hull Inflatable at Ship Rock

[catalina_mike]

I have a 12' with a 25hp on it that we carry aboard our boat. Two can dive out of it comfortably three tight. I would not drive it across the channel however, I have drove it to Avalon from Two Harbors with four and a dog before. Reminded me of my jet ski days!

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Underwater navigation is a separate skill from other diving skills, and like other skills, takes time and a willingness to develop the skill to become proficient.

I'm understand what you're saying Frank but I'm going to respectfully disagree. And remember that one of my favorite mottos is "You never get hurt on a dive you don't make."

In diving, you start with some basic skills and build on them, moving up the food chain as it were. There really aren't THAT many skills when you get down to it: breathing, kicking, watching air, knowing where you are, etc. But IMHO, you really shouldn't be moving up to the next level until you've gotten fairly good (not even "mastered") the level you're currently on. Don't do the wreck class if you're still having trouble with buoyancy. Too often in this industry, because what we mainly have to sell to stay in business is gear or classes, we're happy to let people "move up" even without the requisite foundation of skills because that's how we make money, or a belief that "they'll get better down the road".

In this specific case, I'd argue that it takes a certain mental discipline to dive a rebreather (certainly to prep one for a dive). You need to focus, be aware of what's going on, follow a checklist, and stay on top of things. Sort of the same type of mindset that you should have to be able to navigate from one point to another and back underwater. So it's not that navigation will help you be a better rebreather diver, but to me a problem with navigation seems to indiciate a lack of the general mindset that should make for a successful rebreather diver.

Add to this (in post #7) that he ran out of diluent, and I think it sort of proves my point that this guy might be an accident waiting to happen if he continues to dive his rebreather.

- Ken

---------- Post added February 7th, 2013 at 03:56 PM ----------

. . . he ran out of diluent, at least the issue he told me about.. His BC inflater was leaking and was the source of his issue . . .

One thing we see a lot in dive accident analysis is that it's not one problem but two, three, four that casue the issue. So the advice we give is that when there's just ONE thing going wrong, fix it or abort the dive. In this case (IMHO), once he realized he had a leaky inflator, he should have immediately aborted the dive and headed back to his boat, either underwater or on the surface. It sounds like he didn't do that and is probably lucky he didn't have a worse outcome. It's a case of dodging a bullet but I'll bet he's not even aware it ever whizzed by his head.

- Ken

 

[wedivebc]

I'm understand what you're saying Frank but I'm going to respectfully disagree. And remember that one of my favorite mottos is "You never get hurt on a dive you don't make."

In diving, you start with some basic skills and build on them, moving up the food chain as it were. There really aren't THAT many skills when you get down to it: breathing, kicking, watching air, knowing where you are, etc. But IMHO, you really shouldn't be moving up to the next level until you've gotten fairly good (not even "mastered") the level you're currently on. Don't do the wreck class if you're still having trouble with buoyancy. Too often in this industry, because what we mainly have to sell to stay in business is gear or classes, we're happy to let people "move up" even without the requisite foundation of skills because that's how we make money, or a belief that "they'll get better down the road".

In this specific case, I'd argue that it takes a certain mental discipline to dive a rebreather (certainly to prep one for a dive). You need to focus, be aware of what's going on, follow a checklist, and stay on top of things. Sort of the same type of mindset that you should have to be able to navigate from one point to another and back underwater. So it's not that navigation will help you be a better rebreather diver, but to me a problem with navigation seems to indiciate a lack of the general mindset that should make for a successful rebreather diver.

Add to this (in post #7) that he ran out of diluent, and I think it sort of proves my point that this guy might be an accident waiting to happen if he continues to dive his rebreather.

- Ken

---------- Post added February 7th, 2013 at 03:56 PM ----------



One thing we see a lot in dive accident analysis is that it's not one problem but two, three, four that casue the issue. So the advice we give is that when there's just ONE thing going wrong, fix it or abort the dive. In this case (IMHO), once he realized he had a leaky inflator, he should have immediately aborted the dive and headed back to his boat, either underwater or on the surface. It sounds like he didn't do that and is probably lucky he didn't have a worse outcome. It's a case of dodging a bullet but I'll bet he's not even aware it ever whizzed by his head.

- Ken

A rebreather does not need diluent for going up so the issue is more that he thought he was in trouble when he wasn't. BO is not really an appropriate response to diluent loss

 

[1.3]

I'm understand what you're saying Frank but I'm going to respectfully disagree. And remember that one of my favorite mottos is "You never get hurt on a dive you don't make."

Everyone complains when individuals speculate in the accidents section - Why are we judging/speculating here? You have no idea of the individual divers skills and by your own questioning, don't appear to have a good handle on rebreather diving.

As far as skills are concerned there are plenty divers and non divers who have lousy sense of direction and training is not going to make a difference.

The diver showed good judgement and got out of the water. End of story.

 

[drbill]

I'm not a big fan of diving from an inflatable. I was working in the Sea of Cortez as marine biologist/underwater videographer for an eco-cruise line (Lindblad/National Geographic) and dove from their Zodiacs. On one dive my surface support was called back to the ship and I was left in thew water unaware. When I surfaced, I had my camera in one hand which limited my mobility and the inflatable floats were too high to simply hand it over the side without risking damage. I started up the ladder and the rope holding it to the rigid inflatable's deck broke... leaving me stuck in the water with a camera. It took quite a while to get myself up and over the float and into the boat. Give me a good swim step any day!

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Everyone complains when individuals speculate in the accidents section

Not everyone. Just me.

Why are we judging/speculating here

Judging, yes. Speculating, no. I'd prefer to charactarize what I'm doing as analysis from the facts given. And I freely admit there's a fine line between analysis and speculation. Speculation, to me, is either making stuff up or presuming facts that are not in evidence and then going off based on that.

It would be like, in this instance, saying, well, there could have been a very heavy current, and maybe his boat slipped anchor, and he lost his buddy and had to spend some time looking for him, so maybe that's why he went through his diluent and came up far away from his boat. THAT'S speculation.

You have no idea of the individual divers skills . . .

You're right, I don't. But we do have some facts as presented by an eyewitness which I'm taking at face value and basing my comments on those. And skill-level is sometimes irrelevant, as there are often skilled divers (Sheck Exley immediately comes to mind) who have accidents. And there are also lack-of-skill divers, who blissfully go about their dives, totally unaware of dangerous practices they may engage in.

. . . and by your own questioning, don't appear to have a good handle on rebreather diving.

I've never claimed to be a rebreather expert (nor even a rebreather diver) but I have investigated two rebreather fatalities, one of which involved running out of diluent. And I'm pretty certain that "running out of diluent" is not on any of the checklists for a rebreather dive, so it makes me wonder what other mistakes are being made that aren't proving costly in this specific scenario, but which might be problematic down the road. As I think I stated previously, my view is that rebreather diving requires MORE diligence, not less, than a dive on open-circuit. And it would seem to me that running out of diluent, even with a leaky inflator, may indicate an "I'll-be-able-to-make-it-through-the-dive" mentality which could prove problematic down the road IMHO.

As far as skills are concerned there are plenty divers and non divers who have lousy sense of direction and training is not going to make a difference.

I couldn't disagree more. Navigation, with a compass or using natural aids, is actually pretty easy to do and get good at. "Sense of direction" actually does not play into mastering the skill, though it can certainly help.

The diver showed good judgement and got out of the water. End of story.

Or . . . the diver got lucky and made it back to the surface and got lucky that nothing worse happened. (Yes, I realize running out of diluent isn't the same as running out of air).

What I find most interesting is how aggressive/defensive you are being of this guy's actions. You don't seem to be saying "I disagree with you and here's why." You seem to be saying "You shouldn't be expressing these views in the first place." Interesting.

- Ken

 

[Wookie]

Completely off topic and only relevant to the side discussion, the worst accident we've ever had on the Spree where the diver survived was a diver running out of dil at depth (220 feet). We've all learned a lot since then.

 

[1.3]

You seem to be saying "You shouldn't be expressing these views in the first place." Interesting.

- Ken

Wow! Not what I said. Guess what I'm thinking now?