"Riding your Computer Up" vs. "Lite Deco"

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I have a dive buddy that has been bent twice well below NDL. He's done the chamber rides. We still dive together (he likes having a buddy and I oblige), but we are limited to only to around 1 ATM (33 ft) and he's always on NITROX. Whether it was DCS or DCI, he doesn't know, his doctors didn't know and I certainly don't know.

PFO seems to be the suspect du jour, perhaps they should get checked -- if they haven't already and with all the caveats about accuracy of the tests.

Even if we could measure N2 loading in situ, and not by estimating your tissue loading on a dive computer, we still wouldn't understand how that level of loading would impact an individual.

Bubble formation argument does make sense so I'm pretty sure gas loading alone is not sufficient, you'd want to monitor the bubbles. I suspect there'd be a fair amount of variability in how different individual lungs can get bubbles out of the bloodstream, both in terms of the rate and size of the micro-bubbles, so VGE alone is not sufficient. And so on.
 
...//... I suspect there'd be a fair amount of variability in how different individual lungs can get bubbles out of the bloodstream, both in terms of the rate and size of the micro-bubbles, so VGE alone is not sufficient. And so on.
I've pretty much had it with this thread, but I complement you on that insight.

Not only overall physical efficiency (COPD as an extreme case) but simple position and breathing style matter too. Please watch the two layman vids offered below while keeping in mind two very different trims and procedures, diving vertically and breathing shallowly vs. diving horizontally with diaphragmatic breathing:




 
An NDL is determined by the mathematics of a given, specific, decompression algorithm. It's not a grey area. It's not fuzzy. It's a very clear number on a table or computer screen.

Once you decide on an algorithm, I am in agreement. However if you are shopping algorithms, there is a marked difference in NDL's between them all. Since they are all acceptable, it makes NDL a gray area rather than one single line as it was in '62 when all we had was the US Navy tables.

However, DCS presentation itself IS a grey area. There are a myriad of known factors that can vary the potential onset and severity ...and probably quite a few unknown factors also.

I believe that this is much more important information than what algorithm you choose.


Bob
 
I think that the issue of terminology did something to add confusion to the debate.

An NDL is determined by the mathematics of a given, specific, decompression algorithm. It's not a grey area. It's not fuzzy. It's a very clear number on a table or computer screen.

Different algorithms provide different NDL for otherwise identical dive parameters. In addition, most algorithms can be made more conservative via manual settings - reducing the NDL.

However, DCS presentation itself IS a grey area. There are a myriad of known factors that can vary the potential onset and severity ...and probably quite a few unknown factors also.

It's important to recognise that diving within a given algorithm NDL is not a guaranteed assurance that you won't get DCS.

Pertinent to some stances in this debate, it's also correct to recognize that exceeding an NDL is also not a guaranteed assurance that you will get DCS.

Divers increasingly have the freedom to select an NDL for their diving. Gone are the days when the only choice for most divers was between a PADI table NDL and a US Navy table derived NDL.

There are now dozens of dive computers on the market, running many different algorithms... each calculating more conservative premises aggressive diving limits.

Very few recreational divers select a computer based on algorithm concerns. The algorithm is barely mentioned in most dive computer advertising. When it is mentioned, most divers aren't knowledgeable enough to place it into a personal context or risk consideration.

I'd agree that any dive has physiological effects on the body; including effects that persist post-dive. This includes the formation of bubbles.

However, those physiological effects may not be significant enough to create diagnostic signs or symptoms according to the current criteria of DCS. That does not mean that these effects are non-damaging in ways, as yet, not understood by hyperbaric medicine.

There's undoubtedly physiological factors that make some individuals highly prone to DCS. Vice-versa, there's individuals that can do extraordinarily aggressive diving and seem near-immune to DCS.

This is why the general advice is always to dive conservatively. Historically, that's been through staying comfortably within an NDL. In the age of diving computers and varied algorithms, it also means choosing a conservative algorithm and/or setting for an algorithm.

Obviously, it takes significant diving experience to determine your own personal risk factors with DCS. Each dive adds to your individual sample... your personal statistics.

I'd suggest that it takes many hundreds, if not thousands, of dives to confidently determine your general susceptibility to DCS.

Even then, your susceptibility will vary depending on many factors, not least your age, general health and fitness. A prudent diver should expect increasing susceptibility as they get older and/or if their diving habits change.

Paying attention to your post-dive vitality may help a quicker understanding of your susceptibility, without the need to push your 'sampling' to the level where you need hyperbaric medical treatment.

Obviously, to achieve this requires both experience and astute observation.

But that still sucks for the few it doesn't work for.

It pays to stay very conservative until you have a high degree of confidence in understanding your own DCS susceptiblity. Many divers erring towards aggressive diving seem to underestimate the time and parameters needed to have that real confidence.

The issue with 'lite deco' isn't so much about physiological factors. Undertaking effective staged decompression should still dictate a reasonably low diffused inert gas volume on surfacing.

The DCS risk with 'lite' deco stems from whether or not the diver is competently able and properly equipped to guarantee that they won't reach the surface with a harmful volume of inert gas in their body.

Creating that guarantee is what polarizes 'lite' deco into a potentially very safe or a very risky diving approach.
Agree with this view on the subject (I posted similar in the first dive computer thread).

DCS has been proven to be a very individual thing with something of a bell curve where most people sit pretty much in the middle (where most algorithms are acceptable) but there are outliers where they are either extremely susceptible to (the "undeserved hit") or resistant to DCS (able to "safely" do dives with considerably less deco than would be the normal).

Without the experience & knowledge to properly analyse your body's response post dive with regards to vitality, aches and pains, it is very difficult to know how close you might be to that chamber ride. That is a skill that should take time to build up as you need to understand what is acceptable for you.

What some people seem to forget (or are ignorant of) is that even the best "experts" in the field admit their knowledge is based on assumptions and "best fit" data.
 
I think that the issue of terminology did something to add confusion to the debate.
Agreed.

An NDL is determined by the mathematics of a given, specific, decompression algorithm. It's not a grey area. It's not fuzzy. It's a very clear number on a table or computer screen.
I disagree. NDL or no decompression limit is..

"The maximum total bottom time that a diver can spend at depth without having to do a decompression stop" - multiple sources

There are other definitions but this is the essense of the term, so indeed it is a very gray area. We already well know and have discussed the highly variable limits set by various algorithms and by the implementations of the manufacturers.

The NDL value calculated by a given program is set and finite but only for that specific implementation.
 
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I disagree. NDL or no decompression limit is..

"The maximum total bottom time that a diver can spend at depth without having to do a decompression stop" - multiple sources ....

The NDL value calculated by a given program is set and finite but only for that specific implementation.

As a vacation diver who only dives when he can travel somewhere warm and salty, I have really enjoyed this thread. I am currently in Cozumel, and it has provided much afternoon/early morning reading.

Still, it seems most of it could be summed up with an old proverb.

"A man with one watch knows what time it is. A man with two isn't so sure."
 
well, not to nitpick on Lisa, but NDL is the maximum amount of time at depth after which one can surface non-stop at safe ascent rate, with the probability of clinical DCS below some very low number.

Or in terms of watches: a man with two dive watches knows what time it should be for vast majority of divers, give or take a few milliseconds.
 
I've pretty much had it with this thread, but I complement you on that insight.

Not only overall physical efficiency (COPD as an extreme case) but simple position and breathing style matter too. Please watch the two layman vids offered below while keeping in mind two very different trims and procedures, diving vertically and breathing shallowly vs. diving horizontally with diaphragmatic breathing:





thanks for the videos I can watch at work easily :wink:
 
Uh, Lizzie... :stirpot:

I know that you are just bustin'. In all fairness (TO ME) I did say they were layman vids.

Will you Puhleeeeze let this thread die an honorable death???
 
we shall feed this thread the blood of virgin buhlmann goats so that it remains undead and haunting you forever
 

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